Advice on replacing front subframe

[TollyV5]

Hi all, first off apologies, but I'm posting about a Toledo V5 not a Leon, but practically the same car and nobody posts or replies in the Toledo forum anymore, hence posting here:

I bought the car back in early December, it spent a good portion of it's life by the sea and even though the bodywork is actually really good, the subframes have not fared so well. I have been working my way through various jobs/upgrades and coming up one of the more annoying jobs will be to replace the front subframe which is quite heavily rusted. The rear beam is also not great, but I think I can salvage that, use rust converter and then repaint without too much bother.

I'm a bit worried about the removal of the front subframe just because some of the bolts look in bad shape and the prospect of snapped bolts fills me with dread, especially the 4 main bolts that go into the chassis legs - Does anyone have any tips or tricks to share for this type of job and rusted components?

 

[Alexis27]

Not much you can do really except plan for the eventuality of one snapping in advance.

have a look at your power steering pipes first in case you have any leaks because the ones at the bottom need the subframe off, so worth having a peer with a torch

 

[MoToJoJo]

Umm, ok, advice....

As Alexis27 says, be prepared with a backup plan

There are ten bolts that are important here, the four subframe bolts, the four that hold the steering rack to the subframe, and the two that hold dogbone mount on the subframe.

It's the dogbone ones that are probably the most likely to snap as they love to corrode and become one with the subframe. My solution was to have a spare mount ready because honestly it's a massive pain separating the mount and the subframe when that happens (chisel, hammer, and lots of swearing as you belt the everloving out of it).

Next up are the steering rack bolts. If they snap then you have to either drill the leftover bits out of the steering rack, or take this opportunity to upgrade to the Cupra R ones (makes a surprising amount of difference tbh).

And then the subframe bolts. These are way more sturdy than the rest so unlikely to snap but you never know.

As to the how? Plenty of penetrating fluid, spray it everywhere and give it time. Have a heat source like a blowtorch handy.

When leaning on a bolt there's a creaking sound to be wary of, if you hear or feel it, STOP. If you've managed to wind the threads out, even a little, spray with fluid and wind back in. Repeat until the bolt is out or it's stopped moving.

If a bolt just won't budge, don't apply more leverage, apply heat till the bolt is hot then try. It's not fun, you may burn yourself, but it usually works (I've never had to go that far personally).

Or take it to someone who's a specialist in the platform/has dealt with lots of classics with rusted bolts.

 

[Thai-wronghorse]

Having fully stripped **** loads of these cars over the years I can pretty confidently say the 4 main subframes bolts shouldn't be of concern unless they've been tampered with previously.
The steering rack bolts do have a tendency to snap occasionally but it's possible to recover these, the same applies to the 2x 13mm dogbone to subframe bolts.

Sent from my SM-S906B using Tapatalk

 

[TollyV5]

Umm, ok, advice....

As Alexis27 says, be prepared with a backup plan

There are ten bolts that are important here, the four subframe bolts, the four that hold the steering rack to the subframe, and the two that hold dogbone mount on the subframe.

It's the dogbone ones that are probably the most likely to snap as they love to corrode and become one with the subframe. My solution was to have a spare mount ready because honestly it's a massive pain separating the mount and the subframe when that happens (chisel, hammer, and lots of swearing as you belt the everloving out of it).

Next up are the steering rack bolts. If they snap then you have to either drill the leftover bits out of the steering rack, or take this opportunity to upgrade to the Cupra R ones (makes a surprising amount of difference tbh).

And then the subframe bolts. These are way more sturdy than the rest so unlikely to snap but you never know.

As to the how? Plenty of penetrating fluid, spray it everywhere and give it time. Have a heat source like a blowtorch handy.

When leaning on a bolt there's a creaking sound to be wary of, if you hear or feel it, STOP. If you've managed to wind the threads out, even a little, spray with fluid and wind back in. Repeat until the bolt is out or it's stopped moving.

If a bolt just won't budge, don't apply more leverage, apply heat till the bolt is hot then try. It's not fun, you may burn yourself, but it usually works (I've never had to go that far personally).

Or take it to someone who's a specialist in the platform/has dealt with lots of classics with rusted bolts.

Many thanks for your replies chaps - really appreciate it - It gives me a bit more confidence to attempt the job myself, since I cannot find a reliable mechanic anywhere these days.

With regards to the steering rack - I was under the impression that the VR5 Toledo already had the same quicker rack as the Cupra R - does anyone know if that is incorrect, in which case would I just be better off sourcing a decent rack from somewhere in case the bolts snap and I'm not able to salvage it? Also, the 4 bolts holding the rack to the subframe, do they bolt into the rack directly or into brackets that hold the rack down? In which case could I just source replacement brackets? I had planned to replace all the tie rods, so perhaps I might be better off going down the route of a fully refurbished Cupra R unit, in case I can't detach these from the V5 unit - there is alot of corrosion!

I had planned to just replace the dogbone mount, so as long as it unbolts from the transmission easily enough it should be fine.

Last question - Would I be better off sourcing a 2nd hand OEM VAG subframe and tarting it up or would a brand new aftermarket equivalent be ok? I'm not sure on the quality of the aftermarket subframes, anyone have an idea?

 

[Thai-wronghorse]

The mk2 Toledo runs the standard steering rack that's found on all the other non Cupra R models.

Sent from my SM-S906B using Tapatalk

 

[Thai-wronghorse]

In regards of the rack bolts, 2 go into the rack body (these often corrode due to the steel bolts been inside a cast aluminium thread)
The nearside 2 bolts go into a steel wrap around bracket and very rarely have any issues.

Sent from my SM-S906B using Tapatalk

 

[TollyV5]

The mk2 Toledo runs the standard steering rack that's found on all the other non Cupra R models.

Sent from my SM-S906B using Tapatalk

I think I read it in this article:

https://classics.honestjohn.co.uk/news/comment/2019-04/hidden-heroes-seat-toledo-v5/

"It was a fairly well-sorted driver’s car, too. SEAT had learned a lot with the Leon 20v Turbo and Cupra models, and some of these parts found their way over to the sister car, namely the firmer dampers and faster steering rack, although the V5 retained a higher ride height and longer suspension travel. There was a reason for that - the V5 engine was tall and narrow, meaning it sat low in the engine bay. Many an enthusiast who has fitted coilovers or lowering springs to a V5 Golf will tell you that the first thing to whack a pothole is the car’s sump, and that, folks, is not very good news."

Are you sure it will be a bog standard rack?

 

[MoToJoJo]

Pretty sure it's a stock steering rack in the V5 (had one). Stock Cupra is three turns lock to lock, R is 2.7

I would recommend a good 2nd hand OEM subframe over a new copy as the new one won't be spot on. It's not make or break but for the least amount of faff, that's the way I'd go

 

[TollyV5]

Thanks for your help guys - I dont suppose there is anyone on the forums who is a reliable breaker and might have a subframe and rack from a LCR in good condition (particularly need minimal rust) I'm based in Bucks

 

[Thai-wronghorse]

Sent from my SM-S906B using Tapatalk

 

[MoToJoJo]

Thai (yup that one) is your man

 

[Manic172]

I measured a im axles front sub frame with a high tech aero space measuring equipment. A company I used to work for used to live dicking about stuff I make and wanna do. So with 3d style mapping od a std subframe to the Im axles. Every hole was with in 10 thou. That means in the grand scheme of things they pretty much spot on. Have a read threw my readers ride. I done a lot of work to a subframe and Lower arms etc. To make it stiffer and a better driving experience.