Operation of high voltage battery management

[Pascal78114]

Hello,

New to this forum, I have just purchased a Cupra Formentor VZ 245 hybrid.
I admit that I am a little confused by the way the electrical management of my Cupra works.
Firstly, on the calculation of engine power.
Cupra Formentor 204HP: 150HP 1.4 engine + 116HP electric motor with 12.8KW battery = 204HP
Cupra Formentor 245HP: 150HP 1.4 engine + 116HP electric motor with 12.8KW battery = 245HP
How can we explain such a difference in calculating the total power with identical engines?
Concerning electricity consumption, the Cupra can travel 55 km (WLTP).
On a journey of 42km per day, cool driving mode, heating off, outside temperature 10°, after 40 km, I was at 0km range and at the end the petrol engine started with a reserve set to 0.
What is the average autonomy?
Some people say that to preserve the battery, you should not go below 20% and when recharging you should not exceed 80%.
The 12.8KW is the raw power but not the usable power as with all batteries.
To my knowledge, we cannot manage the maximum recharge.
If we put the reserve at 20%, the autonomy drops by around 10KM.
Also in automatic charging mode among the 3 modes (automatic, light or strong), the slowdown is sometimes too strong and a message informs me that I must release the accelerator pedal to respect the speed limit.
The car slows down too much requiring you to accelerate to restart it with greater electrical consumption.
How does automatic mode work?
I am in Comfort driving mode.
Can switching from full electric mode to hybrid mode and vice versa be done while driving?
I feel like all battery management settings are reset to defaults on every startup?
Is that the case ?
To program the charging time during off-peak hours (10:30 p.m.-6:00 a.m.), I use the “departure time” menu which I set to 7:00 a.m. departure time and Reduced rate. There are 2 options -Air conditioning or -Charging.
If I understood correctly, the departure time allows the car to be preconditioned.
By putting Air conditioning to OFF and Charge to ON, what happens?
This morning, I left at 7:00 a.m. the car started on electric and switched to hybrid without seeing it return to electric (full battery).
I deactivated the start time and was able to return to electric mode.
I would like to have opinions and give me advice on use to improve electric autonomy.
Also, what is the fuel consumption on the highway with the battery discharged?
I get a message telling me I need to do an update.
Should we do it with the gasoline engine running?

 

[LetsForment]

For sure.

 

[dashnine]

Wow that's a lot of questions!

How can we explain such a difference in calculating the total power with identical engines?
The same engine is tuned / restricted so the manufacturer can charge a premium for the higher powered car with the same engine. Many manufacurers do this, my sons Mini One First had the same engine as a Mini Cooper, but only 70bhp. For some reason the max power in hybrid mode is not the sum of the individual power units, not sure why, probably a technical limitation.

What is the average autonomy?
I get about 60mpg - but that is just a factor of how much EV only running I do. I find about 50mpg in hybrid mode with a charged battery, and 40mpg with an empty battery. But different people with different routes and driving styles may get more or less. You will never get the WLTP economy figures as these are laboratory figures, not real world. You'll also get less miles in colder conditions. (By the way, it's 'economy', not autonomy but your English is way better than my French))

To my knowledge, we cannot manage the maximum recharge.
If we put the reserve at 20%, the autonomy drops by around 10KM.
There is a reserve for hybrid use when the battery is 'empty', I can only charge a maximum of about 10kWh. Yes, obviously less charge, less miles / kms. Depends if you are keeping the car for ever and preserve the battery life by limiting the charging (and your EV range) to only 20-80%.

How does automatic mode work?
It regenerates more or at the higher rate when the battery is empty. In High mode it does slow the car more, but you get used to it and lift of the accelerator pedal later as in High, it is almost 'One Pedal' driving, use part throttle to keep to the speed limit.

I use Low mode because I found my rear brakes corroded badly as they were not being used (it's crazy to put disc brakes on the rear of a hybrid as they don't get used enough - the Born has read drum brakes, I guess they don't have drum brakes developed for the Formentor.

Can switching from full electric mode to hybrid mode and vice versa be done while driving?
Yes, you can set one of the /// panels in the centre screen to be a shortcut for a EV or Hybrid switch. Once the engine starts, EV mode is not available until the engine has warmed up.

I feel like all battery management settings are reset to defaults on every startup?
Is that the case ?
I don't think so.

By putting Air conditioning to OFF and Charge to ON, what happens?
The car will not be heated or cooled, the battery will be charged - if a Departure Time is set, it will charge the last 50% of the battery immediately before departure time..

Also, what is the fuel consumption on the highway with the battery discharged?
I find about 40mpg

I get a message telling me I need to do an update.
Should we do it with the gasoline engine running?
Just let it update as you drive for the small updates, that larger ones will update when turned off and will tell you not to start the car for 30 minutes.

 

[Pascal78114]

Thank you for your quick responses.
I didn't understand the "Departure time" setting.
I want to start charging the battery during off-peak hours.
In France, electricity is cheaper from 10:30 p.m. to 6:00 a.m.
I put the charging cable in around 7:00 p.m. but I don't want the charging to start.
I don't want heating Air Conditioning Off.
I leave for work around 7:00 a.m.
How should I configure the system?

 

[dashnine]

Thank you for your quick responses.
I didn't understand the "Departure time" setting.
I want to start charging the battery during off-peak hours.
In France, electricity is cheaper from 10:30 p.m. to 6:00 a.m.
I put the charging cable in around 7:00 p.m. but I don't want the charging to start.
I don't want heating Air Conditioning Off.
I leave for work around 7:00 a.m.
How should I configure the system?

If you set a departure time, the car charges half the battery on connection, then waits until just before departure time to charge the rest of tha battery.

Just set the temperature to on to heat/cool the car before departure.

Sorry, I don't know how to set the car to charge itself overnight, I use a 3 pin (in UK for domestic power) cable with automated (Alexa) WiFi switch in it and turn the power on at the set times I have cheap electricity. Maybe someone else can advise.

 

[CupForm]

How can we explain such a difference in calculating the total power with identical engines?

It is never THE SUM of the 2 power values (obviously, 150HP + 116HP not equal to 245HP); the difference between the 2 versions is simply a limitation of the electric motor power via software. However, AFAIK the limitation is only applied in Hybrid mode (sucht that the total power output wil be different), but in EV mode, for both versions the electric motor will be able to deliver the same maximum power (depending on conditions: temp. and SoC).

outside temperature 10°, after 40 km, I was at 0km range

That one is a never-ending story... it will be almost impossible to get the WLTP ranges in real-life. However, for optimal temperature and optimal speed, you might get above 50km, maybe close to 60. Search the Web for "EV efficiency diagram" - you'll find some graphs that show a dependence of the car's range with respect to the car's speed and outside temperature. Every other car shape and size has a slightly different sweet-spot. For example the optimum speed for Tesla Model3 won't be same as for Formentor - different form factor. Let's not forget that our cars have VERY FAT tyres - that's not good for efficiency...
Probably if you're able to keep close to 40-50 km/h with the Formentor you'll get maximum range; range will drop fast with increasing speed 'cause that's not the most aerodynamic body (but it looks great!!! )

Some people say that to preserve the battery, you should not go below 20% and when recharging you should not exceed 80%.

Just ignore those stories! The car already has a 20% reserved capacity; when you reach 0% (or 0km EV range) the car is using the part of the battery "reserved" for the hybrid system. Charging to 100%? Sure, I do that almost daily. If there were such limitations be sure the manufacturer would have implemented those into the battery management software, in order to replace as few batteries as possible under warranty.

How does automatic mode work?

I don't have the VZ, but in my case I find the Automatic Mode quite smart: when there's no traffic in front of me if I lift off the accelerator, the car will not regenerate any energy (won't slow down)- that called "coasting". However, when I'm approaching the car in front the car will start to regenerate proportionally to the amount of braking the car in front is using - strong regen if it's braking hard, low regen if it's braking softly.
When I'm driving through the mountains for example, I prefer Sport mode because the Regen is "strong", and depending on the road configuration I'm able to use "one pedal mode" sometimes - there's no need to touch the brakes.

Can switching from full electric mode to hybrid mode and vice versa be done while driving?

YES, no restrictions!

I feel like all battery management settings are reset to defaults on every startup?

YES.
From Hybrid, the car will always restart in EV mode (if you have come charge left) when you restart the car. Also, the reserved battery percentage will be forgotten - you have to go back into the Settings and tell the car you want to preserve XY% of battery for your destination.

the car started on electric and switched to hybrid without seeing it return to electric (full battery).

Indeed, this happens sometimes; the car is the boss of you, not vice-versa
Sometimes the car decides that it needs the ICE to run for a while for various resons (not all clear or visible to users), even if the SoC of the HV battery is high. This is considered normal. Once the ICE starts, the Hybrid system won't allow you to go back to EV mode too soon, because the engine needs to run for a while to reach some threshold parameters (oil and temp. related), otherwise the engine weardown would be out of control.

I deactivated the start time and was able to return to electric mode.

That was probably a simple coincidence; the ICE was most likely happy with the parameters it got after a while. Look on the VirtualCockpit - there's a symbol next to the battery (a crossed "E") that tells you "EV mode unavailable".

I get a message telling me I need to do an update. Should we do it with the gasoline engine running?

Not unless the car tells you so. Just start the update and it will do it's "magic" in the background.
I usually start the update as soon as I get the notification and I don't pay any attention to it.

 

[LetsForment]

There is a minimum battery charge setting. When you plug the car in, it will charge to that level. Set it to zero and it won't charge right away at all.

The balance of charging is then done at a time to be 100% just before your time of departure. So you can game things a bit.

Of course if you set charging to be done by 6am and plug it into a 1kw charger, it's going to start at 8pm

All this is easier done via the app, but you can do It all on the car itself too.

 

[Pascal78114]

Thank you all for your responses.
This forum is very interesting and allows you to learn all the subtleties of how my Cupra works which are not found in the user manual.
Sorry for my English but I use a translator.
Concerning engine power, I owned a Peugeot 308 GT 180CH PHEV.
Peugeot 308 180HP: 150HP 1.6 engine + 120 HP electric motor with 12.8KW battery = 180HP
Peugeot 308 225HP: 180HP 1.6 engine + 120 HP electric motor with 12.8KW battery = 225HP
Are there big differences in calculating maximum power between manufacturers?
Initiating charging was simpler on the 308 as I simply indicated the charging start time and pressed a button next to the charging socket on the car (the light turned blue).
If I understood correctly, you have to use an external programmer to trigger the recharging time?
Today, on the way back, I was driving fully electric and after about ten km, the thermal engine started (hybrid mode)
and impossible to return to full electric.
There was still some battery left but I hadn't set the reserve from 20% to 0%.
I "confirm, Also, the reserved battery percentage will be forgotten - you have to go back into the Settings and tell the car you want to preserve XY% of battery for your destination".
Why does Cupra reset this setting to 20% on every startup?
Yes, on the VirtualCockpit - there's a symbol next to the battery (a crossed "E") that tells you "EV mode unavailable".
On the 308, I could drive full electric using the entire battery life and sometimes the gasoline engine would start to lubricate the engine and remove internal gases.
It's surprising that you can't drive fully electric for 42km.

 

[dashnine]

Today, on the way back, I was driving fully electric and after about ten km, the thermal engine started (hybrid mode)
and impossible to return to full electric.

Once the ICE has started, EV mode is unavailable until the ICE is fully warmed up. As the battery charge approaches 0% the available EV power reduces (see the thin blue line around the rev counter), hard use of the throttle will start the ICE if you exceed the EV power.

There was still some battery left but I hadn't set the reserve from 20% to 0%.
I "confirm, Also, the reserved battery percentage will be forgotten - you have to go back into the Settings and tell the car you want to preserve XY% of battery for your destination".
Why does Cupra reset this setting to 20% on every startup?

I don't think it does, when I press the settings gear icon for hybrid battery use, the reserve bar is set each time at the current charge of the battery.

 

[LetsForment]

It does forget the min battery level every time you power down though. And will then burn through whatever is left unless you go through a 5 touch motion - in addition to all the other things needs to get going.

It would be nice to have the car remember the settings

 

[dashnine]

... will then burn through whatever is left unless you go through a 5 touch motion.

Set the EV / Hybrid switch app to display in the /// screen, and reduce it to a 2 touch motion!

 

[Pascal78114]

By following your advice by setting the reserve to 0%, battery charging begins at the scheduled time.
So no need to buy a programmer

 

[LetsForment]

This is the way

 

[Pascal78114]

On the other hand, I don't understand why after a full recharge, I only have 44km of autonomy?
On my old 308 PHEV, on the same route and the same driving mode, I managed to get 54km and sometimes 58km.
The temperatures are not very cold.
The Cupra weighs 100k more and has wider tires but that doesn't explain everything.
What do you think?

 

[LetsForment]

To me, the formentor is not an electric commodity car. It's a performance car with very good running gear and performs best in a hybrid mode, able to maximise value when it can rest the ICE - or when needed,.use both electric and ice to deliver a nice smooth power profile. It's also usable in pure electric mode for short runs, in a semi effective manner.

I typically realise about 30mile operating range in pure electric mode through the year, not a while lot of temperature impact through the year. I would say 10% at most.

 

[dashnine]

On the other hand, I don't understand why after a full recharge, I only have 44km of autonomy?
On my old 308 PHEV, on the same route and the same driving mode, I managed to get 54km and sometimes 58km.
The temperatures are not very cold.
The Cupra weighs 100k more and has wider tires but that doesn't explain everything.
What do you think?

What's the battery size on the 308 PHEV? The Formentor is 12.8KWh, of which about 10KWh is useable (the rest is reserved for hybrid use when the useable part battery has expired).

 

[Pascal78114]

On the 308, the battery has the same power but you should not confuse the raw power with the real power.
If from 12.8KW we go to 10KW that is more than 20% loss.
It is enormous?
19-inch rims, 245 wide tires and 100 kg more add to consumption.
Also, it is higher, less aerodynamic
I'm going to see the consumption on the highway in hybrid mode.
The engine of the 308 is a 1.6l 150HP and that of the Cupra 1.4l 150HP.
With the 308, I consumed 6L at 120KM/H

 

[dashnine]

On the 308, the battery has the same power but you should not confuse the raw power with the real power.
If from 12.8KW we go to 10KW that is more than 20% loss.
It is enormous?
19-inch rims, 245 wide tires and 100 kg more add to consumption.
Also, it is higher, less aerodynamic
I'm going to see the consumption on the highway in hybrid mode.
The engine of the 308 is a 1.6l 150HP and that of the Cupra 1.4l 150HP.
With the 308, I consumed 6L at 120KM/H

I don't think I'm confusing anything, but I think you're asking if the 2.8KWh loss in the 'hidden' battery capacity for hybrid use when the useable battery cacpacity is 'empty' is enormous? I don't know, but assume all VW group vehicles do the same thing, otherwise you'd have no hybrid use at all when the battery is empty.

But back to my earlier question, Google suggests that the 308 battery capacity is 12.4KWH, and the useable capacity is 10.4KWh so similar numbers and similar 'hidden' capacity to the Formentor?