Lol, i can't hide my green eyed TFSI envy, such capable motors.*cough*
and some TFSi's too - hehe
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just got the new 3.31 apr file
- Thread starter BIG_Y
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You Seat guys are even more hung up on RR figures than the Subaru lot LOL.
There are so many different things that can effect figures and we all know peak figures are nothing without area under the graph. From what I can see therse maps are talking about +/- 10bhp. Which in the real world is all of.... well..... nothing. LOL
Chasing numbers is a dangerous and expensive game. On my scoobs I went from standard to 330 to 400 to 550 and my car is now all in bits again.
I am scared to add up what I've spent / wasted in total but I know its over £17k on its current spec, not including what was bought and sold on between specs
My opinion now is just pick your mods, pick your mapper and enjoy your cars.
I'd rather have low figures and good times
There are so many different things that can effect figures and we all know peak figures are nothing without area under the graph. From what I can see therse maps are talking about +/- 10bhp. Which in the real world is all of.... well..... nothing. LOL
Chasing numbers is a dangerous and expensive game. On my scoobs I went from standard to 330 to 400 to 550 and my car is now all in bits again.
I am scared to add up what I've spent / wasted in total but I know its over £17k on its current spec, not including what was bought and sold on between specsMy opinion now is just pick your mods, pick your mapper and enjoy your cars.
I'd rather have low figures and good times
You Seat guys are even more hung up on RR figures than the Subaru lot LOL.
There are so many different things that can effect figures and we all know peak figures are nothing without area under the graph. From what I can see therse maps are talking about +/- 10bhp. Which in the real world is all of.... well..... nothing. LOL
Chasing numbers is a dangerous and expensive game. On my scoobs I went from standard to 330 to 400 to 550 and my car is now all in bits again.
My opinion now is just pick your mods, pick your mapper and enjoy your cars.
I'd rather have low figures and good times
These updated APR maps cost us APR customers nothing lol so if there is an update might aswell shout about it
LOL I know where you are coming from and agree that same day same rollers give the best chance of comparison but there will always be more grounds to argue even after that.
Engine temps, tyre slip on rollers, pressures.... Not saying it wouldn't be do fairly, just that there are still variables.
And a map can be more about how you drive the car to get the best out of it if you are custom mapping and not using generic maps.
Then there is the RR figures v actual road power.... A car set up to do figures on a dyno will not necesarily be the quickest on the road / strip / trrack now will it?
Simple things like an intake set-up can behave differently on the road as it does on the RR with bonnet open and fans going.
Obviously I am playing devils advocat a little with these comments but you see my point I'm sure.
Andrew - I agree that free upgrades are a massive advantage over the competition and I see this as being a far better advantage than a couple bhp. But to be honest the real advantage is for moving up through the stages than the smaller updates which I believe Revo will also update for free.
In my experience more power / torque rarely comes for free. There is always a trade off. The extent of this I can't comment on for various reasons, mostly that I am pretty new to the vag scene and have no experience of the mapping of these engines. Pushing bounderies always finds a weak point or at best increases the rate of wear and tear.
Engine temps, tyre slip on rollers, pressures.... Not saying it wouldn't be do fairly, just that there are still variables.
And a map can be more about how you drive the car to get the best out of it if you are custom mapping and not using generic maps.
Then there is the RR figures v actual road power.... A car set up to do figures on a dyno will not necesarily be the quickest on the road / strip / trrack now will it?
Simple things like an intake set-up can behave differently on the road as it does on the RR with bonnet open and fans going.
Obviously I am playing devils advocat a little with these comments but you see my point I'm sure.
Andrew - I agree that free upgrades are a massive advantage over the competition and I see this as being a far better advantage than a couple bhp. But to be honest the real advantage is for moving up through the stages than the smaller updates which I believe Revo will also update for free.
In my experience more power / torque rarely comes for free. There is always a trade off. The extent of this I can't comment on for various reasons, mostly that I am pretty new to the vag scene and have no experience of the mapping of these engines. Pushing bounderies always finds a weak point or at best increases the rate of wear and tear.
60-70 lbs ft of torque in my case on same dyno, same day is something to talk about
And in the real world can you clarify what this has added?
Do you have consistent lap times or 1/4 mile times that have actually improved?
And as above - at what cost? I'd like to know exactly whats been tweaked / changed on the map to achieve this? Torque doesn't just grow. boost or timing must be added for this so you have to accept that this can have an effect on mechanical parts.
My quarter mile times are inconsistant mainly due to ability or lack of. However my terminal speeds are up 2 or 3 mph on before runs.
APR's newest version was recalibrated as far as boost control was concerned. They have hired in new guys who have been able to achieve more boost than the original ECU settings would let, and have bench tested and road tested this softawere update for 10's of thousands of miles on track and on engine dyno.
All is good
APR's newest version was recalibrated as far as boost control was concerned. They have hired in new guys who have been able to achieve more boost than the original ECU settings would let, and have bench tested and road tested this softawere update for 10's of thousands of miles on track and on engine dyno.
All is good
LOL. There is more to the 1/4 than meets the eye. Getting the power down is an interesting skill
And it only gets worse as the power goes up. You may not believe me but its the same with AWD as you have to stop wheel spin and avoid bogging down as well as trying not to heat up or kill the clutch.
So then I will stand by my original statement. For an added 2 or 3 mph terminal on the 1/4 mile (where we can't really replicate the temps, tarmac condition, tyre condition etc not to mention gear changes etc) the update will provide little in the way of useable power for the majority of people.
Again, I'm not slagging it, I just think its more important to be happy with what you have
And it only gets worse as the power goes up. You may not believe me but its the same with AWD as you have to stop wheel spin and avoid bogging down as well as trying not to heat up or kill the clutch.
So then I will stand by my original statement. For an added 2 or 3 mph terminal on the 1/4 mile (where we can't really replicate the temps, tarmac condition, tyre condition etc not to mention gear changes etc) the update will provide little in the way of useable power for the majority of people.
Again, I'm not slagging it, I just think its more important to be happy with what you have
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60-70 lbs ft of torque in my case on same dyno, same day is something to talk about
What was done to your car other than a remap to release that amount of torque mate?
If Revo Stage 2+ was running 60lbs less, wouldn't that put your pre-APR torque at around 300-310lbs? 320lbs max. Those figures are obviously considerably less than what a Stage 2+ car should make. Were your SPS settings wrong?
Apologies if I've missed the dyno outputs or an explanation of the figures elsewhere.
Its bag on the following page mate. Revo setting were Boost 9 timing 5 fuel 5. 324 lbs ft torque. APR V3.1 was 346 lbs ft torque. APR v3.31 (on my car the file was tailored 4 times due to a good bit more head room than noirmal with my associated mods. It made 391 lbs ft. Its all a few pages back
When WeeG's car has its burst pipe fixed, I am keen to give it a blast - its with me just now while he is offshore. I am interested to see how it drives as the power and torque lines are different to what I am used to.
For what its worth, reference r/r plots, Duncan and I are aware of a lad from our home town that had a Honda CRX back in the day which had a turbo and 280bhp was it Duncan? So less weight, more power, more torque etc. On our local test track, my old Toledo 1.8T would rip it a new arsehole despite having more weight, less dyno power etc. Not saying that's the case here - just that numbers and plots don't always equate to being quick where it matters. Also, getting the power down, careful application of throttle, knowing when to change gear etc is going to be more important than a few bhp on a r/r plot.
Example here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaPCc1q5KcU
For what its worth, reference r/r plots, Duncan and I are aware of a lad from our home town that had a Honda CRX back in the day which had a turbo and 280bhp was it Duncan? So less weight, more power, more torque etc. On our local test track, my old Toledo 1.8T would rip it a new arsehole despite having more weight, less dyno power etc. Not saying that's the case here - just that numbers and plots don't always equate to being quick where it matters. Also, getting the power down, careful application of throttle, knowing when to change gear etc is going to be more important than a few bhp on a r/r plot.
Example here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaPCc1q5KcU
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I'm very interested in what you have to say about it tbh Al as you rate the revo map very highly.
Yes, RR plots can indeed be made to read many things. And there are lots that can be done / adjusted. Its not really an argument I would like to go into as it gets messy really quickly LOL.
The CRX turbo was "proven" 285bhp. Our local test track is a great place to compare like for like. It starts with a decent incline, then a flat then a slight decline. So torque is important up-hill. Repeat the test track in reverse and you can ensure its not just a torque deficiency on the way up the hill that eaked out the gap.
In the case above the car and driver package for the CRX was not particularly good but even with a decent driver the CRX was out paced.
In my last Subaru I had over 400BHP but it took a while to get the car to the point where it was quick, in the end I sacraficed some top end power so a drop in peak numbers. The power delivery was such that it was too brutal and all the power came in too quickly. The boost went from 1bar to 1.6 bar in a matter of seconds meaning it would snip all 4 wheels. This had to be mapped out using in gear boost plots. Car made a little less peak power and area under the graph was less but power was useable and car was more stable as a result. Much better to drive and it didn't want to kill me every time I squeezed on the throttle on exiting corners. By alalysing logs you can also clculate the best point to change gear. No point holding to the red line if peak is gone 1.5k rpm earlier. unless of course there is less useable power at the rpm at which you would enter the next gear. (1/4 mile application). Similarly on track, no point changing up just before a corner if you need to come down again and be more unsettled prior to a corner. I'd rather be in control and get the drive out of the corner. The more you are doing to hang onto the car the less you are concentrating on driving through and out. Smooth laps are normally the quickest.
Personally I know that driver training is often worth faaar more on a track than a few extra numbers.
That goes for track, road and 1/4 mile.
The CRX turbo was "proven" 285bhp. Our local test track is a great place to compare like for like. It starts with a decent incline, then a flat then a slight decline. So torque is important up-hill. Repeat the test track in reverse and you can ensure its not just a torque deficiency on the way up the hill that eaked out the gap.
In the case above the car and driver package for the CRX was not particularly good but even with a decent driver the CRX was out paced.
In my last Subaru I had over 400BHP but it took a while to get the car to the point where it was quick, in the end I sacraficed some top end power so a drop in peak numbers. The power delivery was such that it was too brutal and all the power came in too quickly. The boost went from 1bar to 1.6 bar in a matter of seconds meaning it would snip all 4 wheels. This had to be mapped out using in gear boost plots. Car made a little less peak power and area under the graph was less but power was useable and car was more stable as a result. Much better to drive and it didn't want to kill me every time I squeezed on the throttle on exiting corners. By alalysing logs you can also clculate the best point to change gear. No point holding to the red line if peak is gone 1.5k rpm earlier. unless of course there is less useable power at the rpm at which you would enter the next gear. (1/4 mile application). Similarly on track, no point changing up just before a corner if you need to come down again and be more unsettled prior to a corner. I'd rather be in control and get the drive out of the corner. The more you are doing to hang onto the car the less you are concentrating on driving through and out. Smooth laps are normally the quickest.
Personally I know that driver training is often worth faaar more on a track than a few extra numbers.
That goes for track, road and 1/4 mile.
All i know for sure is the car is faster by a fare margin than it was, compared with a couple of other high powered cars around my way that i have had comparisons with back to back
Nope, sould be fixed tonight though when i back home from the tin can in the north sea
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Just too add my 2 cents worth
I have just had the v3.4 map installed. i have only travelled 30 miles in the rain so these are my own very early opinion.
The map makes the car so much easier to drive, not the real low down surge when trying to just drive around town. Really derivable. The car seems to pull more harder over the full rev range. To the point in the wet a in 5th at 4k rpm my wheels where spinning.
The RR bellow wont be as accurate as i would like. My car was spinning on the rollers so the torque is off. Also i had a small hole in my exhaust, so i will upload once i get it fixed and on another RR.
Before and after maps from the same day laid over each other
I have just had the v3.4 map installed. i have only travelled 30 miles in the rain so these are my own very early opinion.
The map makes the car so much easier to drive, not the real low down surge when trying to just drive around town. Really derivable. The car seems to pull more harder over the full rev range. To the point in the wet a in 5th at 4k rpm my wheels where spinning.
The RR bellow wont be as accurate as i would like. My car was spinning on the rollers so the torque is off. Also i had a small hole in my exhaust, so i will upload once i get it fixed and on another RR.
Before and after maps from the same day laid over each other
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No logs yet. Only got it today. Will get it logged over the next few days and test the 104 file with meth. Hopefully it will run fine with the timing
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