Surge on Stage 1 K04 - Cured

[JamJay]

Hi all,

I suspect that my car isn't running as well at it should. Basically my last mod was a 3" TIP, when I first fitted it the car felt like an animal, really really sorted however since this time it feels a bit down on power although still quick. The TIP itself will not have harmed the car at all but it seems like it has prompted something that was already on it's way out to deteriorate faster, as you'd expect in a higher state of tune.

What I've noticed is that when planting my foot to the floor I get this spinning suction sound from the turbo when it's trying to draw in max airflow, you can hear the ar hitting the blades and it creates this fluttering type sound on full boost. To the best of my knowledge, this is compressor surge (not the fake kind i.e BOV flutter) and is NOT good. Hard acceleration in 1st into 2nd into 3rd and no surge however hard from 3rd, 4th, 5th & 6th and surge is apparent, getting worse in the higher gears where there's more load.

On idle my MAF reads between 2 & 3g/s so that seems to be accurate and I took some logs tonight and topped 206g/s in 4th gear which equates to about 260bhp...not bad for Stage 1 I hear you say but with Forge silicone TIP and a non-JETEX air filter bolted to the MAF some time ago, I got 207g/s so something isn't adding up, these were the only mods I had at the time too. What should I be checking?

Logs run on Stage 1 AMD LCR with 3" DP & Cat, 3" TIP, JETEX Filter, Forge 007.

On a freezing night like tonight I would expect some nicer figures to be honest, could it be that I'm experiencing a lot of heat soak?

In comparison to the Forge TIP, the car feels faster on the road for sure but this surge and low(er) g/s readings worry me.

Here are the logs, I had my foot flat to the floor and this is what the car produced. As you can see the G/S readings are fluctuating where the turbo is very rapidly dropping and rebuilding boost. This shouldn't happen, the G/S should increase upwards only when accelerating.

Group A:	'002			
	RPM	Load	Inj. On Time	Mass Flow
TIME				
STAMP	 /min	%	 ms	 g/s
5.63	3840	191.7	23.12	158.61
6.03	4000	191.7	22.44	159.06
6.43	4120	191.7	21.42	157.39
6.84	4280	191.7	20.74	160.39
7.25	4440	191.7	20.4	165.94
7.65	4600	191.7	20.06	168.75
8.05	4720	191.7	20.06	170.39
8.45	4880	187.2	19.72	176.36
8.85	5040	185.7	19.38	178.5
9.26	5160	185.7	19.04	185.97
9.66	5280	185.7	19.38	188.14
10.06	5400	191.7	20.06	192.36
10.46	5520	185	19.38	192.14
10.86	5640	178.2	19.04	191.86
11.26	5760	181.2	19.72	193.08
11.66	5840	178.9	19.72	194.33
12.08	5920	178.9	19.72	195.25
12.57	6040	173.7	20.06	201.67
12.97	6120	178.2	21.08	198.11
13.48	6280	173.7	20.4	198.11
13.88	6360	163.2	19.38	201.36
14.28	6440	163.9	19.38	202.33
14.68	6520	160.2	19.04	200.06
15.08	6560	160.2	18.7	202
15.5	6640	166.2	20.06	197.72
15.9	6720	158.6	19.04	199.72
16.3	6800	144.4	17.34	198.11
16.81	6880	156.4	19.38	202
17.29	6960	148.1	18.7	206.25

I would just like to point out that this problem is not a direct result of fitting the TIP, it has simply shown a weak point on my car and I now need to find out what it is. As I said, when the TIP was first fitted everything was 100% but now the car is having a fit over something.

 

[sambryant]

Hello m8, the badger 5 tip seems to change the sound on mine 2 and i love it. It does make alot of sound low down, well mine does any way. Logs look good to me, 257 bhp or close to it. What did you make on dyno? I dont think heat soak will be a problem tonight, its freezing here lol.
heres my logs to compare

Sunday	6	March	2011	19:03:02	
1ML 906 032 		1.8l R4/5VT      01 0001			
					
	Group A:	'002			
		RPM	Load	Inj. On Time	Mass Flow
	TIME				
Marker	STAMP	 /min	%	 ms	 g/s
	0	2560	104.5	8.84	53.14
	0.4	2600	107.5	8.84	55.31
	0.8	2680	129.3	11.56	71
	1.2	2800	159.4	14.28	105.81
	1.61	2960	191.7	20.06	144.39
	2.01	3120	191.7	23.12	169.25
	2.42	3320	191.7	24.14	143.56
	2.8	3520	191.7	24.48	175.5
	3.21	3680	191.7	24.48	182.75
	3.73	3920	191.7	23.12	183.44
	4.13	4080	191.7	22.1	185.36
	4.53	4240	191.7	21.76	184.64
	4.93	4400	191.7	21.08	188.69
	5.33	4560	191.7	20.74	196.58
	5.84	4680	191.7	20.4	197.89
	6.24	4840	191.7	20.4	198.42
	6.64	5000	191.7	19.72	201.64
	7.04	5080	191.7	19.72	205.47
	7.44	5200	191.7	19.72	211.75
	7.84	5320	191.7	19.72	218.42
	8.24	5440	191.7	19.72	216.36
	8.65	5560	191.7	19.38	216.67
	9.05	5680	191.7	19.72	220.5
	9.45	5760	191.7	18.36	223.36
	9.85	5840	191.7	18.02	222.28
	10.25	5960	191.7	18.02	223.36
	10.65	6040	191.7	18.02	226.14
	11.07	6120	191.7	18.36	222.28
	11.47	6200	190.2	19.72	222.28
	11.87	6280	185	19.72	221.56
	12.27	6320	175.9	20.4	210.39
	12.67	6400	173.7	19.04	208.33

mine peaks at just over 6000rpm with 226 then slowly comes down, i think this is a sign of heat causing issues as yours peaks later on.

 

[JamJay]

Do you get this fluttering sound Sam? It's almost like the air is trying to enter the turbo so fast that it's hitting the compressor wheel. My car made 250bhp when mapped which was good from OE 210bhp but on road logging with a worse setup than I have not I was getting 207g/s so why am I now seeing no extra gain?

If I'm making 206g/s now, is that to say that at Stage 2 with cat-back & FMIC the car will be able to find another 15-20g/s?

I am thinking that possibly I need to service the 007, could this cause the sound? Also perhaps I should refit the tip in case it's fitted a little off since I tweaked it? I would have thought for both that I'd get a fault code but I got nothing .

 

[sambryant]

yes i get the flutter sound, got it on video when bill was setting up my mbc, i will upload it tomorrow.
your logs look good m8, nothing wrong at all. remember the logs are reading from the ecu and they dont lie, so your getting 257bhp or round abouts but its real stage 1 on a 210 thats very good and you should be pleased. also going back to dynos, people should make more on the road than on the dyno as the air is cooler and the flow is much better.
if your dv is at fault you should get an error code or limp mode but i can see from the logs this isnt a problem for you.

 

[JamJay]

You're right Sam, the logs look healthy which is why I'm head scratching as I can't see how I got 207g/s before with just Forge TIP, 007 & Neuspeed P-Flo with no air feed, no 3" DP, no 3" Cat & no 3" TIP. That's basically saying that none of those make a difference .

Thanks for putting my mind at rest though, I am less worried about the car now . I'm going to fit my heat shield tomorrow to the filter so I'll see if that makes any difference.

 

[sambryant]

i think your confussed as your car made very good figures befor the added mods, you still have great results m8. just looked at another lcr with cc stage 2 and he only pulls 210gs the with a 3" dp and decat, in comparison your car looks very good. also your mods are not really doing much as they are not being tested, thats when stage 2 comes in also jamjay dont disgaurd the txautosport intercooler kit, made some good results on the dyno, only 10c rise on power runs very good kit for £350 and it fits lol

 

[traumapat]

maybe clear the ecu/reset and TB reset as a starting point.

 

[JamJay]

Thanks Sam, this is why I love this forum, a wealth of info to help you out so thank you. If you have that video of the flutter sound then that would be great .

I would love to reset the TB Pat but I only have VCDS Freeware so I don't think I can do it?

 

[ibizacupra]

is everything tight and secure?
is the maf still working ok and not failing for some reason (they do that)

Are you compare before and after logs with the only change being the tip?
every car, and I mean every car, flows more air with it, so if yours is'nt there's something else going on I think, leak, or maf or something.

 

[DaNnY_LaD]

Id Say maf..

I fitted my Home Brew 3'' tip and my Maf **** its self and died lol......only peaked at low 200g/s yet logs show it should be a hell of alot more...

 

[ibizacupra]

Hi all,

I suspect that my car isn't running as well at it should. Basically when I first fitted the B5 3" TIP the car felt like an animal, really really sorted however since this time it feels a bit down on power although still quick.

Thats the clue...

TIP wont have changed, but something else has changed, leaking, failing maf etc...
reset adaptions (fault code reset) and see what its doing, but before this just check what 032 blocks reporting on fuel trims

 

[RS6]

Im having the same problem i think lots of noise from the TIP but seems down on power, no leaks or anything mine seems to be being caused by a non genune maf that was fitted on the rolling road day at AMD also getting a fault code

Ordered a new bosh maf and hoping to get that fitted end of the month they can easily die on you

 

[t0m]

No problems here with the TIP.. Car is very much flying still.

Hope you get it sorted soon Jason.

 

[JamJay]

Thanks everyone and Bill, I really appreciate the input. I'll log block 032 tomorrow and post logs asap, interesting to know about MAF as it is still on its OE one which is overdue a death. No leaks at all, pipes all in tact and all clips on the TIP are done up so main suspect is MAF.

I've just fitted a new heat shield for the filter now where as before it was right above the TC and getting hot, it was also not secured so maybe the bouncing about has killed the MAF but saying that the car doesn't feel slow, just not as fast so possibly MAF is only starting to go .

You need to see my logs really to help so I'll get on the case.

 

[ibizacupra]

Ok, keep me informed. Mafs coilpacks and rubber pipes splitting are the bane of 1.8t ownership. 2

 

[JamJay]

Hi Bill and all,

I treid to log block 032 but VCDS Lite won't do it so i'm stuck. I did however run another 002 log and maxed 206g/s in 3rd this time. Maybe the original 207g/s I got was a fluke but seems weird that I go this without the 3" TIP so something has to be up. Would a dying MAF cause an engine stutter at all? I swear my car did this last night (wasn't paying too much attention and hasn't done it again) but all coilpacks are new since 2mths back so they're ok. I am going to pull off the 007 in a bit and see if that is an issue, still getting the fluttering noise under full boost.

 

[S3 Nattie]

Fluttering noise under WOT doesnt sound good at all, hopefully it something small. Do you have a boost gauge to see what your boost is doing when you hear the fluttering noise or can you log blocks 115 in vag com.

My cars got a weird stutter every know and then which I think is to do with my MAF being on its way out even though it gives ok ish readings when I log the MAF. Report back if a new MAF stops that stutter your getting.

 

[Harris.]

Thats exactly what my maf did. I would accelerate it would stutter then go as normal. g/s readings were fine tho. changed the maf and it was fine.

 

[S3 Nattie]

Mine only ever seems to stutter on low throttle. Say if I build up the rev very slowly but keep the throttle the same it will surge forward very slightly then stutter/pause and then randomly the DV will dump. This only happens sometimes, even worse going up a hill on very low throttle.

Did your maf values change at all when you put a new maf on or did it just stop the stuttering. Only asking because ive put some performance parts on but my maf values have drop a few g/s were I was expecting them to increase lol.

 

[JamJay]

The flutter noise is hard to describe, maybe flutter is the wrong word as it makes you think of DV. Basically when I put my foot hard on the accelerator from lower revs, say 2000rpm for the purpose of logging, the turbo will suck really hard, you know that sound where you can hear the cone filter sucking all the air in, a huge rush of it being drawn down a pipe. Rather than this sucking sound beeing one constant whoosh under acceleration, it flutters like the compressor wheel is chopping all the air entering into it. This is what I want to know most about, is it normal with this larger TIP?