Cold running problems and misfire- Toledo 20V SE

[MarkBournemouth]

Model: Toledo 20V SE, year 2000.

This site is my last resort. I don't want to, but I'm coming to the stage where I'm thinking of getting shot of this thing completely and getting myself something Japanese! The car's got a problem that's even got a VAG specialist stumped. As follows.....

A year or so ago, it developed a problem where it would start hesitating under load. Garage pinpointed it to a failed O2 sensor. That was replaced, and the car was fine. Then about six weeks ago same problems/symptoms again- hesitation, misfire, erratic idle etc.

Back to the garage, and they ran a diagnostic on it. Failure code came up, but apparently, this time it wasn't the O2 sensor. They cleaned the MAFF, plugs, checked the leads and all the other gubbins, and cleared the fault code. Car was fine until a couple of weeks ago, when it started again. Drove to work in the morning, all was perfect. Started it to come home, and the idle was uneven, misfiring and the hesitation/loss of power was back. Took it back to the garage; same failure code. They cleared it again. Started it the next morning and it's off again.

Funny thing is that once the engine's warmed, it seems to be fine, although I can tell it's definitely not right. It's never done this with a cold engine in the past though.

I reckon it's something ignition/engine management system related, as it's on startup that seems to make this problem kick in.

Has anyone else had this problem, or can you offer any advice/ideas?

 

[kewe]

Sorry to hear your woes mate must be very frustrating.

Has the car ever had the coil packs changed (if it has coil packs)? Does the EML come on?
They don't always show up on VAGCOM diagnostic but are usually one of the main culprits
along with the MAF for poor running i.e. Eratic Idle, misfire and loss of power. Is it possible the fault code is a red herring? Mines often shows faulty intermittent 02 sensor when on Vagcom, but it doesn't affect the cars running at all.



If you don't get much response here might be worth posting in the Leon section as they use the same engine but may be a lot more common.

 

[MarkBournemouth]

Sorry to hear your woes mate must be very frustrating.

Has the car ever had the coil packs changed (if it has coil packs)? Does the EML come on?
They don't always show up on VAGCOM diagnostic but are usually one of the main culprits
along with the MAF for poor running i.e. Eratic Idle, misfire and loss of power. Is it possible the fault code is a red herring? Mines often shows faulty intermittent 02 sensor when on Vagcom, but it doesn't affect the cars running at all.



If you don't get much response here might be worth posting in the Leon section as they use the same engine but may be a lot more common.

Thanks mate, and much appreciated.

That's the thing though. I'm getting no warning lights, nothing. It starts perfectly. Runs at about 1000 revs on tickover for about 20 seconds, then drops to about 600. The garage I took it to is an independent (who have an in house VAG specialist), so it might be worth as a last resort taking it to the local Seat dealer. I'm wondering if it is the coil packs, as that did cross my mind (but I don't want to tell the garage their job). I've no idea if they've ever been changed. Not while I've had the car anyway.

One thing I didn't mention, that I should have, is that it has on a couple of occasions just cut out completely whilst I've been driving, albeit slowly around a car park both times- thankfully! I've got a feeling that this is all part and parcel of a core problem.

It is possible that the code is a red herring as you say. The garage did say that the code can mean any number of things, but nothing definite.

Frustrating is an understatement!

 

[kewe]

Yeah difficult to pinpoint from what you're saying.

From my past experience I would avoid SEAT dealers and search for another VAG specialist near you that could give you a 2nd opinion.

 

[MarkBournemouth]

Probably better at the moment than shelling out on a new car.

The maddening thing is that this coming Sunday, I finish paying for it (finance).

To cap it all, two days ago the window regulator went on the offside front- that's £200 odd

Thanks for your suggestions and advice. I'll have a look round for a VAG specialist. Plenty of them around.

 

[Slimy]

I don't know much about that particular engine, but 600 rpm for tickover seems very low, is that what it should be? If not, then the idle control valve may need looking at.

And yes, go for VAG specialist, SEAT dealers don't seem to know much about the cars they're fixing!

The only other thing I might suggest is swapping the MAF out. I'm not convinced cleaning ever works, and if they thought it was necessary it suggests to me they think something was wrong there.

 

[MarkBournemouth]

I don't know much about that particular engine, but 600 rpm for tickover seems very low, is that what it should be? If not, then the idle control valve may need looking at.

And yes, go for VAG specialist, SEAT dealers don't seem to know much about the cars they're fixing!

The only other thing I might suggest is swapping the MAF out. I'm not convinced cleaning ever works, and if they thought it was necessary it suggests to me they think something was wrong there.

I Agree. It shouldn't be as low as 600. In fact, I've got to keep my foot on the throttle to keep it going.

When they looked at it a few weeks back, they cleaned the MAF sensor along with other things. Whatever they did at the time cured it, until it went started acting up again two weeks ago.

The upshot is I took Kewe's advice and found an independent Seat specialist, so it's booked in with them for Wednesday next week. I'm either going to kill this or cure it. If I get the same "Dunno what it is" response, then it's goodbye to it. It's only done a genuine 54,000 from new, which makes it all the more annoying.

 

[kewe]

Good luck on Wednesday mate, let us know how you get on. Hope it doesn't come to the worst scenario

 

[dvance]

Hope you figure it out, it's really annoying when something's been "fixed" and then comes back again!

 

[MarkBournemouth]

Thanks guys.

I'll take it in Tuesday afternoon and leave it with them overnight. They can then start it from cold next AM, and see for themselves.

It's probably the tiniest, tiniest thing. The DTC code that came back when it was checked at the end of July is a P0561- 'System Voltage Unstable'. Assuming it's the same code they found the other day, it's obviously electric related.

Will post a diagnosis once I've hopefully got something a little more concrete.

 

[MarkBournemouth]

Update:

Well looks like I've finally got this sorted. Seems to have been the air mass meter that went u/s. It's been replaced and the car's running fine, but will give it a few days to make sure.

Took it to JWR Vehicle Services in Salisbury who are a Seat specialist. If you're in the Salisbury area, I cannot recommend these guys enough. Friendly reliable service. Hell, they wouldn't even charge me for it until I was satisfied the car was running okay. Even then it only turned out to be £95 all in, which is pretty damned good.

Just wanted to say thanks to you guys on this site too for the advice you gave re Seat dealers vs independent VAG specialists.

BTW I'm in no way associated with JWR. Just chuffed I've got my Tolly back.

 

[kewe]

Thanks for the update and glad to hear all seems to be resolved - fingers crossed!
So is the air mass meter the same as MAF as Slimy suggested?
Always good to know you've got someone you can trust nearby as well

 

[MarkBournemouth]

Thanks for the update and glad to hear all seems to be resolved - fingers crossed!
So is the air mass meter the same as MAF as Slimy suggested?
Always good to know you've got someone you can trust nearby as well

Well apparently not.

I thought that too, and asked JWR's boss if it was the same as the MAF. He said no it's not. Best way of describing it (he showed me one) is about two to three inches long, like a section a piece of drainpipe and about three to four inches in diameter. It's got a sensor running vertically through the centre, with a wire that connects through to the engine management system. That sounds very much like a MAF I know, but he said that the two are separate components.

Cost of the part was £63. I believe that a MAF is more than that cost-wise.

If I'd have known about these guys sooner, I could have saved myself a lot of grief, and £200-odd of my hard earned wonga!