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Engine Additive or Fuel Additives
- Thread starter harry123
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Redex (half bottle per full tank) to clean up the crap, else you can try a couple of tanks of Vpower 99 or Esso 97. What does the flap say anyway for Cupra 98RON ideally and (95)RON if desperate?
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I have a 2014 Cupra only ever user Shell V Power or Tesco Momentum both sets of fuel are 99 Ron and have lots of additives to keep engine clean and with proper regular servicing all good.
I saw a Fifth Gear episode once where they did some tests on this and from what they said Esso Momentum was the 2nd most expensive and performed in the middle of all the fuels they tried. V-Power won out and out on all the tests (bhp on a rolling road, mpg, some others I can't remember) bar price and is probs the only one of the 'Premium' fuels that lived upto it's hype.
I'd use V-Power if I lived nearer a Shell and had a newer car tbh. A few of my mechanic buddies say you can tell the difference with cars that have been on V-Power only from new vs. ones on 'Supermarket' stuff, but they also say there's no replacement for a good and regular service schedule.
I think this is the 5th Gear ep linky...
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I qualified as a motor mechanic (city and guilds in those days) back in the late 60's early 70's. I've spent a lifetime in and around garage workshops and the subject of additives - whether in fuel or lubricating oils - is always guaranteed to prompt interesting, and sometimes passionate opinions.
The big problem, I've found, is that there's a great deal of "smoke and mirrors" involved and trying to find results supported by tangible proof is very difficult indeed. Mostly you find it's a case of someone's unscientific opinion that the product worked.
So, lets go for lubricating oils first. My opinion is very simple - Don't do it! Instead spend your money on a really good "big name" product. Also be sure that it fully complies with the manufacturer's specification.
Engines these days, especially the latest generation of small turboed units, have very specific needs and oils are almost now "engine specific". Turbo's in particular stress the oil to extremes. Even more critical is that you use the right transmission fluid (I see they've mostly stopped calling it gearbox oil these days). The correct viscosity of oil is very important - SAE (society of automotive engineers) 80 and 90 used to be common (80 or engine oil in gearboxes and 90 or 140 in back axles) but now a days, well, just look at this:
https://www.opieoils.co.uk/c-646-gearbox-oil-by-grade-viscosity.aspx
However it doesn't end there as there is also a GL (Gear Lubricant) number For instance most commonly GL4 or GL5 these days. This is all to do with the additives in the oil and caused a very big problem not so long ago when GL5 was introduced. A lot of people, who should have known better, assumed that GL5, with it's superior anti friction additives, would be a benefit in older gearboxes. The problem this caused was that, over a period of time, The different additive package caused rapid wear to take place on "yellow metals" so synchro rings, gear selector forks, bushed bearings, etc. which caused expensive failures. I am told that some of the lubricant manufacturers have now modified their formulations to get over this problem but my advice would be If the manufacturer recommends a GL4 DON'T put a GL5 in it! Again, only use an oil which fully complies with the manufacturer's spec. Interestingly Fiat have a "GL4plus" oil specified for our Panda - API's charts don't show a GL4Plus! but Petronus make it under the "Tutela" name - I would guess it's probably a "safe" GL5 which they've given this specification so as not to frighten us? Also many manufacturers no longer specify an oil change interval for transmission oils! Think about this for a minute. The oil will degrade over time, especially if it's a multigrade spec (ie 75/90 GL5). Also, when did you, or anyone who drives the car, crash/grind a gear change - including selecting reverse? Every time you do this there are microscopic metal particles being dispersed into the oil which then travel round all the bearings and get between the gear teeth etc in the box! I change gearbox oil on all the family vehicles at around the 50,000 mile mark because of this and it's surprising sometimes how much more "sweetly" the box subsequently performs. Automatics? I love driving them, often specifically try to hire one if on holiday, would never own one as the cost of repair if it should go wrong absolutely frightens the pants off me! However oil changes on these are even more important and some don't even have a drain plug any more, you have to drop the pan to do it. This is actually no bad thing as you should be changing the pickup filter at the same time anyway!
This post has turned out to be BIG! So I'm splitting it up as the site is refusing to take so much - more to come.
My advice with engine oils is basically the same. Spend the money on a big name correctly specified product. Again the manufacturer of the lubricant will have spent a great deal of time and money formulating exactly the best combination of oils and additives to best protect that engine. Why would you then tip a load of "stuff" into it which might very well upset this delicate balance? Of course there might be, probably are, products which work but because there is so little accessible proof I just prefer to stay away. Of course this can cost a bit more but I would argue that it's money well spent. There are bargains to be had too if you keep your eyes open - Yesterday I saw Castrol Edge 5W/30 in a couple of different ACEA ratings in Lidl at very good prices. Engine oils are rated in API (which is an American system) and ACEA (European). So it could be said that for us ACEA is the better one to look at although most of us older chaps will be more used to API. Personally I would absolutely avoid "special offers" of an oil name I'd never seen being sold in a supermarket/bargain shop/corner shop where there is no link to car parts. Although it might be perfectly adequate for your Morris Minor or Hillman Avenger, Maybe not an Imp though? if you have one. There are bargains to be had which are still more than "safe" For instance I'm quite into my VAG products - mostly Skodas and Seats - and, perhaps bizarrely, small Fiats. Have a good look around for specialist suppliers. I mostly get my Fiat service items and spares from Shop4parts (S4p) and my VAG stuff from Trade Part Specialists (TPS). But I also buy from my local factoring organisation SRS where it's not critical that it's a manufacturer part I need. If you explore these types of outlet you will find there are bargains to be had in the engine oil department. S4p for instance do Petronas at a very good price and TPS, who are I believe actually VW owned, do "Quantum oils" which used to be made for them by Castrol and are now a Fuchs product. Perhaps above all though is to change the oil frequently. In my opinion, forget about "long life oil changes" Yes the oil will, probably, perform fairly satisfactorily for that long. But engine oil has a very hard life with solid particles and "chemical" contaminants constantly building up as well as the oil itself degrading with time and stress. This is particularly true for engines which live in urban environments. Just change the oil as you reach the "yearly" mileage recommendation - often 10 to 12,000 miles. Or, if you don't do the mileage, once a year. A good quality oil, in an "every day" standard engine, should be up to performing just fine on this basis. If you have a highly tuned engine or drive it hard, you might like to halve these figures for maximum protection. Always change the oil filter at the same time - pretty much costs peanuts and is very good for the engine.
Still not reached the end! More to come!
Still not reached the end! More to come!
I think this should do it?
So now I need to think about fuel additives. First off I suppose they are unlikely to do any harm (although I believe I read recently of one that had been withdrawn because it was "eating seals" - which in a modern direct injection petrol or diesel engine could cost mega-bucks to sort out?) Most of the credible independent test reports I've read seem to say that, in most cases and at best, the benefits are negligible? Applying the little "grey cells" to this I think there are 3 main areas where you would hope to see benefit. Better fuel economy and, possibly, an increase in performance. Keeping the system, including the inlet tract and cylinders themselves, clean. Providing increased lubrication to the highly stressed parts of fuel injection systems. Particularly relevant now we have these direct injection petrol systems running unbelievably humongous pressures (petrol, unlike diesel, has no inherent lubricating properties,)
Maybe the first, and most obvious answer is, instead of spending the money on an additive just buy the best fuel! In this regard, although I've never bought it, I have read so many recommendations for Shell V Power that I think that's the one I would go for. There's also another consideration. Pretty much all engines sold here (UK) have to be able to run on basic 95 RON fuel (RON being Research Octane Number which quantifies the fuels ability to resist Knock - pre ignition) Most modern engines (especially the latest generation of turboed offerings) incorporate "Knock sensors" and an engine so equipped will advance it's ignition firing point until it detects "Knock" If you run such an engine on a higher octane fuel like V power or Momentum you are likely to get more performance and, maybe, slightly better fuel consumption as the engine's ECU can make better use of the higher octane (maybe 98 or 99 RON) fuel. An older engine, or any engine, without a knock sensor will not be able to adapt it's ignition timing to take advantage of the higher octane fuel so no advantage will be seen, although the superior additive package in the more expensive fuel may be advantageous to the long life of the engine. We run all the family vehicles - 6 at this time -on supermarket fuels and have done so for years. We keep our cars 'till they become "beyond economic repair" and often exceed 100,000 miles before buying a replacement. However I would like to try the V power in the Ibiza, just to see what it's like, but it's just too convenient to nip round the corner to Morrisons!
So, finally, we come to those magic wee bottles of fuel additive which promise so much. I have to say I just don't know! I think some of the ones that claim to clean things out do seem to have some effect and some are probably better than others - Cataclean and Forte are two that come to mind. But, especially on diesels where inlet carbon fouling is a big issue, their effects are not as good as a manual De-gunging! I cleaned the seized turbo variable vanes on my boy's 1.9 PD Fabia (which had caused it to go into "Limp") by dropping the exhaust and squirting oven cleaner into it. Applied the cleaner 3 times cleaning out with the garden hose each time and it worked just great for at least the next 3 years 'till we sold it! I got very worried about diesel pump and injector needle wear when they lowered the sulphur content in the fuel a few years ago and, after a lot of research, started using Wynns Eco Diesel in my 1.9VE tdi Cordoba Vario. This is an additive you add to each tank of fuel and claims to do many things including increase lubricity of the fuel. I stripped the injectors out at around 100,000 miles and took them for overhaul to my local diesel specialist. He charged me £25! that included 4 new sealing washers! He said there was nothing to do, just tighten up the blow off springs a little to compensate for age! Was that due to the Wynns? who knows? I'm now running Archoil AR6900-P MAX (bought from the "Powerenhancer" people - very helpful people) in the Ibiza because its a direct injection petrol so liable to inlet tract carbon fouling. This product claims to specifically address this problem, I haven't yet found another, whilst also increasing the fuel's ability to lubricate components in the fuel system. Who knows if it will work. I plan to strip the inlet manifold off at around 30,000 miles for a look - which will be interesting with it's integral water cooled heat exchanger but she'll be needing a coolant change by then anyway so why not? Have a Google at the "Oilem" site for some very interesting stuff on this and other subjects.
Crikey! I think this has turned into the longest post I've ever seen! Hope it hasn't timed out and all my efforts disappeared into the ether! I hope some will find this useful and I'd love to hear opinions from others - Additives have always fascinated me - They seem to promise so much don't they?
Regards and stay safe everyone
Jock
So now I need to think about fuel additives. First off I suppose they are unlikely to do any harm (although I believe I read recently of one that had been withdrawn because it was "eating seals" - which in a modern direct injection petrol or diesel engine could cost mega-bucks to sort out?) Most of the credible independent test reports I've read seem to say that, in most cases and at best, the benefits are negligible? Applying the little "grey cells" to this I think there are 3 main areas where you would hope to see benefit. Better fuel economy and, possibly, an increase in performance. Keeping the system, including the inlet tract and cylinders themselves, clean. Providing increased lubrication to the highly stressed parts of fuel injection systems. Particularly relevant now we have these direct injection petrol systems running unbelievably humongous pressures (petrol, unlike diesel, has no inherent lubricating properties,)
Maybe the first, and most obvious answer is, instead of spending the money on an additive just buy the best fuel! In this regard, although I've never bought it, I have read so many recommendations for Shell V Power that I think that's the one I would go for. There's also another consideration. Pretty much all engines sold here (UK) have to be able to run on basic 95 RON fuel (RON being Research Octane Number which quantifies the fuels ability to resist Knock - pre ignition) Most modern engines (especially the latest generation of turboed offerings) incorporate "Knock sensors" and an engine so equipped will advance it's ignition firing point until it detects "Knock" If you run such an engine on a higher octane fuel like V power or Momentum you are likely to get more performance and, maybe, slightly better fuel consumption as the engine's ECU can make better use of the higher octane (maybe 98 or 99 RON) fuel. An older engine, or any engine, without a knock sensor will not be able to adapt it's ignition timing to take advantage of the higher octane fuel so no advantage will be seen, although the superior additive package in the more expensive fuel may be advantageous to the long life of the engine. We run all the family vehicles - 6 at this time -on supermarket fuels and have done so for years. We keep our cars 'till they become "beyond economic repair" and often exceed 100,000 miles before buying a replacement. However I would like to try the V power in the Ibiza, just to see what it's like, but it's just too convenient to nip round the corner to Morrisons!
So, finally, we come to those magic wee bottles of fuel additive which promise so much. I have to say I just don't know! I think some of the ones that claim to clean things out do seem to have some effect and some are probably better than others - Cataclean and Forte are two that come to mind. But, especially on diesels where inlet carbon fouling is a big issue, their effects are not as good as a manual De-gunging! I cleaned the seized turbo variable vanes on my boy's 1.9 PD Fabia (which had caused it to go into "Limp") by dropping the exhaust and squirting oven cleaner into it. Applied the cleaner 3 times cleaning out with the garden hose each time and it worked just great for at least the next 3 years 'till we sold it! I got very worried about diesel pump and injector needle wear when they lowered the sulphur content in the fuel a few years ago and, after a lot of research, started using Wynns Eco Diesel in my 1.9VE tdi Cordoba Vario. This is an additive you add to each tank of fuel and claims to do many things including increase lubricity of the fuel. I stripped the injectors out at around 100,000 miles and took them for overhaul to my local diesel specialist. He charged me £25! that included 4 new sealing washers! He said there was nothing to do, just tighten up the blow off springs a little to compensate for age! Was that due to the Wynns? who knows? I'm now running Archoil AR6900-P MAX (bought from the "Powerenhancer" people - very helpful people) in the Ibiza because its a direct injection petrol so liable to inlet tract carbon fouling. This product claims to specifically address this problem, I haven't yet found another, whilst also increasing the fuel's ability to lubricate components in the fuel system. Who knows if it will work. I plan to strip the inlet manifold off at around 30,000 miles for a look - which will be interesting with it's integral water cooled heat exchanger but she'll be needing a coolant change by then anyway so why not? Have a Google at the "Oilem" site for some very interesting stuff on this and other subjects.
Crikey! I think this has turned into the longest post I've ever seen! Hope it hasn't timed out and all my efforts disappeared into the ether! I hope some will find this useful and I'd love to hear opinions from others - Additives have always fascinated me - They seem to promise so much don't they?
Regards and stay safe everyone
Jock
Just been rereading this to see if I've dropped any big ones and it occurred to me, as we are talking about fuels, to mention something which many will be aware off but also many will not. If you are unfortunate enough to miss fuel your vehicle, I mean put petrol in a diesel or vice versa don't even think of starting the engine! In fact don't even turn the key in the ignition as most will now run the fuel pump as soon as you turn the key to the "Run" position let alone the position that activates the starter motor. NO! Instead take the key out and put it in your pocket. If the car absolutely has to be moved push it but don't turn the key in the ignition to free the steering lock because, you guessed it, the fuel pump will run! All this is very inconvenient but if you can confine the fuel to the tank alone all that's going to be needed is to drain the tank and flush it out before refilling - there are specialist companies with mobile vans who make their living doing this and the filling station may well have the number of the nearest one. It won't be cheap and you'll loose the price of the fuel too, but the cost will be minuscule compared to what it will cost if you try to start the engine, or, worse still, drive off. I'm not saying though that you won't be given a hard time by an aggressive pump attendant for blocking up his/her pump island but stick to your guns and just think of the hundreds, if not thousands, of pounds turning that key is going to cost you!
Well, you seem to have equalled some of my postings in word count! The thing is, on the Polo forum, it times out after a certain time and so the first time it happens and I've been banging on about something - it gets annoying, so now if I think that I'm near the time limit I save the text elsewhere so that if I've timed out and can log back in and copy and paste my text back in!
Anyway, I'd be interested to find out how the Archoil manages to help with the coking up on the inlet tract on DI petrol engines, I'd like to think that it works but not convinced.
In the "good old days" Redex was hairy chested man's stuff - instant smoke screen I seem to remember when a neighbour used it, very impressive sight! I used to use it twice a year, big measure in a full tank.
Oil additives, only tried that once, probably added some "good" stuff into Duckhams 20W-50 in an Escort MK1 1300, seemed okay until the temperature dropped to lower than -15C in winter for once, could not start it even with a new big battery, towing was tried but not enough on the frozen roads, needed to wait until the temperature lifted a bit and got it started and drove home and changed the oil, no more funny stuff put into oil again except maybe Commo PetraFlush now and again for a week prior to oil changing time!
Anyway, I'd be interested to find out how the Archoil manages to help with the coking up on the inlet tract on DI petrol engines, I'd like to think that it works but not convinced.
In the "good old days" Redex was hairy chested man's stuff - instant smoke screen I seem to remember when a neighbour used it, very impressive sight! I used to use it twice a year, big measure in a full tank.
Oil additives, only tried that once, probably added some "good" stuff into Duckhams 20W-50 in an Escort MK1 1300, seemed okay until the temperature dropped to lower than -15C in winter for once, could not start it even with a new big battery, towing was tried but not enough on the frozen roads, needed to wait until the temperature lifted a bit and got it started and drove home and changed the oil, no more funny stuff put into oil again except maybe Commo PetraFlush now and again for a week prior to oil changing time!
Mine didn't actually time out, it said I could only enter 10.000 characters (or something) when I tried to post. So I cut and posted the other two just by guessing how big a chunks to cut it into (roughly thirds - I didn't count characters!) So I've still got the time out thing to look forward to!
Originally, as I would guess you know, Redex was an upper cylinder lubricant which was added to your fuel (a bit like 2 stroke but for 4 stroke engines) From your comments about Redex, do you remember their official "tune up"? You were to run the engine at a very fast idle - 1500 to 2000 rpm and, with air filter removed, slowly dribble most of a tin of Redex into the carb intake and put the rest in the tank. It was supposed to free up piston rings, valve guides and, to some extent, decoke the cylinders. I tried it once. It hid the whole street under a horrendous cloud of smoke and annoyed all the neighbours, a lot! I never tried it again. But I did believe in getting a shot from the dispenser on the forecourt every time I filled up with fuel. Now a days you couldn't do that as it would well and truly b****r up your cat!
I to am rather sceptical about the Archoil claim regarding being able to keep direct injection inlet tracts clean. But think it's other properties may well be beneficial. All will be revealed in a couple of years.
Regarding your Escort and it's additive "adventure" I remember a lot of those early additives seemed to concentrate on reducing oil consumption. We sold the stuff in our showroom. I remember trying some too and it came out the tin with a thicker viscosity than golden syrup. It was so thick that, on cold days you could never get more than about 75% of it out of the tin. Didn't think much of it. I'm not a fan of oil flush additives (or flushing oils) because I fear sludge and larger particles might be dislodged and go round with the oil to lodge in the pickup strainer or other vulnerable places. Safer I think, to let sleeping dogs lie! I prefer regular oil changes which will slowly and gently leech deposits and dissolve then into the oil without loosening big "lumps". it'll then come oil with the oil at change time and if some stays in the nooks and crannies then that's fine, it's doing no harm there.
Regarding engines which wouldn't start I remember an amusing - but not at the time - incident in one of the garages I worked in. A very nice wee country BL garage There were only 3 of us mechanics and a couple of apprentices (remember them?) Anyway we received a phone call early one morning to say that the customer couldn't start the car and suspected a flat battery. It had only been serviced the day before so the boss himself went out to calm the customer and start it on a jump - only he couldn't. Our recovery vehicle (Land Rover) was dispatched to bring it in and it caused us all to scratch our heads for a while. Battery was good, no problem with the starter or it's wiring either but the engine would only just crank over. Tried a new starter, just the same. The boss got a bit upset with us "call yourselves mechanics etc!" and the foreman was directed to "fix it before lunch" We all went back to our jobs so I don't actually know how he found out but it turns out the engine was full of gear oil! After draining and refilling with 20w50 (everything got 20w50 in those days) it was absolutely fine. We guessed that it started the day before as it had been standing on the forecourt in the sun awaiting collection but after a night out in the cold the oil just got too thick. Over the next few days there were a couple more. The boss was incandescent by now! Turns out our foreman had put the more experienced apprentice in the lube bay for experience. We had a separate lube bay with dispensers for the oil and a built in oil disposal system - it was one of the nicest I've ever seen. Anyway after you'd completed the mechanical service work the car would be parked with engine idling to heat up the oil at the entrance to the lube bay where the oil and filter, gearbox and rear axle oils, door boot and bonnet hinges and grease nipples would all be attended to. There were 3 oil dispensers - big green things with a handle on the side which you wound round to dispense the oil into a topping up spouted can. Unfortunately, and you wouldn't believe this would you, the laddie didn't know each dispenser contained a different oil so he was just using the first one (the rear axle oil one) and was going to keep on using it till it ran out before moving on to the next one! The poor lad suffered severe leg pulling for the next week or so but actually, of course, it should have been the Foreman who got a bullet up the *******.
Don't worry this site does not quickly time out like the Polo one, so one thing less to worry about.
Oil additives, well now that you mentioned it, I spilt a small amount of that additive onto the garage floor, totally impossible to clear up gripped the concrete like poo to a blanket.
I always change the oil every year, even in my poor S4 which sleeps most of its life in the garage. Oil flushes, by adding special juice into the oil, I see that VW do this every other year but they will be using an extremely aggressive flushing additive due to them needing it to do its job within maybe 10 minutes. The Comma stuff that I use can be left in for 100 miles so I used to use it every other oil change from when my cars escaped from warranty and so it was not just something that I started doing after buying a higher mileage older car with an unknown history as I know that that would be a very bad idea. I'm still undecided if I'll do that with my wife's August 2015 Polo as it is now out of the grips of the dealership workshop.
One thing that I did learn after changing the fuel filter of my old 2000 VW Passat 4Motion was, that if you make a mess of starting up a V engined car, it will quickly end up with low compression due to the unburned petrol washing the oil out of the piston O-rings - I had not expected that and could not work out what was going on, so I called in the AA, first patrol could not get its started but knew a local patrol guy who was said to be an expert with V engine troubles - while I had the plugs out to let them dry and maybe try to vent off excess unburned fuel, he asked for an oil can, filled it with engine oil and squirted some oil into every cylinder, plugs back after a few turns of the starter the engine ran okay! Seems it can be a common problem with some JLR V engines as well as some other premium V engines - so you can live and learn!
Oil additives, well now that you mentioned it, I spilt a small amount of that additive onto the garage floor, totally impossible to clear up gripped the concrete like poo to a blanket.
I always change the oil every year, even in my poor S4 which sleeps most of its life in the garage. Oil flushes, by adding special juice into the oil, I see that VW do this every other year but they will be using an extremely aggressive flushing additive due to them needing it to do its job within maybe 10 minutes. The Comma stuff that I use can be left in for 100 miles so I used to use it every other oil change from when my cars escaped from warranty and so it was not just something that I started doing after buying a higher mileage older car with an unknown history as I know that that would be a very bad idea. I'm still undecided if I'll do that with my wife's August 2015 Polo as it is now out of the grips of the dealership workshop.
One thing that I did learn after changing the fuel filter of my old 2000 VW Passat 4Motion was, that if you make a mess of starting up a V engined car, it will quickly end up with low compression due to the unburned petrol washing the oil out of the piston O-rings - I had not expected that and could not work out what was going on, so I called in the AA, first patrol could not get its started but knew a local patrol guy who was said to be an expert with V engine troubles - while I had the plugs out to let them dry and maybe try to vent off excess unburned fuel, he asked for an oil can, filled it with engine oil and squirted some oil into every cylinder, plugs back after a few turns of the starter the engine ran okay! Seems it can be a common problem with some JLR V engines as well as some other premium V engines - so you can live and learn!
@RUM4MO @Crossthreaded ... Thank you for your very very much for your comprehensive explanantion/ detail.
I think it was a little too too much for my understanding. Although i kind of gathered that everything in this day and age needs to be very specific to the car and that some products work better than others.
i'll start with some redex and take things from there oh and V-Power.
Thanks you guys.
I think it was a little too too much for my understanding. Although i kind of gathered that everything in this day and age needs to be very specific to the car and that some products work better than others.
i'll start with some redex and take things from there oh and V-Power.
Thanks you guys.
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