Ibiza Toca engine noise

[Crossthreaded]

I'm trying to get ahead of the game by asking this question. My neighbour has one of the above, If I remember correctly it's on a 2014 or 15 plate. It has the old 16 valve twin cam port injected engine which has been around for years - You know, the one which has one cam driven from the crank and a wee second belt linking the two cam pulleys.

A while ago I noticed it was making a small "tapping" noise as she drove it past my house. Then, maybe a couple of weeks ago I noticed the noise was considerably louder. Yesterday, as I was weeding my front flower beds, she went past again and the noise was really loud. To me it sounds like a very - and I mean a VERY - wide valve clearance. If it is then the noise is such that it's going to be on just one valve. What's troubling me though, is that I seem to remember reading somewhere that these engines can suffer piston problems? I could imagine this noise being produced by a piston with a damaged side skirt slamming into the bore wall when the cylinder fires. Like severe piston slap. Anyone any ideas?

Oh, and by the way, I'm asking because, for my sins, I'm known in our area as someone who "knows about cars" so I'm expecting her to knock on my door for help any time now and, although we've had a fair number of SEAT and Skoda vehicles in the family, none of them had this engine so I'm not familiar with it.

Thanks for any info anyone can give.

 

[RUM4MO]

I don't know what to say about this as these engines can end up getting quite a bit "tappety" - but in this case, you seem to be noticing an increase in noise. I tried once to reduce that noise on an older 8V SEAT Ibiza but I'm not sure if it really improved, by adding some special "tappety noise reduce" juice. When cold these engines can become extremely noisy and quieten down as they heat up - and still keep going. VW Group never boasted about how quiet these engines were! My wife had a 2002 one for 13 years and my daughter had a late 2009 one for almost 10 years. That was the old BBY and the newer BXW engine code, that one will be another "improvement" of the BXW 1.4 16V 86PS or so ie a C???.

Edit:- I'd think that all you can do if asked is to add a slow flusher to the oil before the next service, in the past I have used Commo Petrol Flush as it can stay in for 100 miles, which for me tended to be a week's use, before dropping out the oil, then add the special valve gear quieting juice with it. I used 5W 30 always with that late 2009 engine, normally Mobil One ESP to tie in with what I used in my other cars. As you know cheap oil, short journeys and a long time between services is a recipe for this sort of thing turning up.

 

[Crossthreaded]

I don't know what to say about this as these engines can end up getting quite a bit "tappety" - but in this case, you seem to be noticing an increase in noise. I tried once to reduce that noise on an older 8V SEAT Ibiza but I'm not sure if it really improved, by adding some special "tappety noise reduce" juice. When cold these engines can become extremely noisy and quieten down as they heat up - and still keep going. VW Group never boasted about how quiet these engines were! My wife had a 2002 one for 13 years and my daughter had a late 2009 one for almost 10 years. That was the old BBY and the newer BXW engine code, that one will be another "improvement" of the BXW 1.4 16V 86PS or so ie a C???.

Edit:- I'd think that all you can do if asked is to add a slow flusher to the oil before the next service, in the past I have used Commo Petrol Flush as it can stay in for 100 miles, which for me tended to be a week's use, before dropping out the oil, then add the special valve gear quieting juice with it. I used 5W 30 always with that late 2009 engine, normally Mobil One ESP to tie in with what I used in my other cars. As you know cheap oil, short journeys and a long time between services is a recipe for this sort of thing turning up.

Thanks RUM. I'm only going to get involved with this one if specifically asked. The girl who owns the car is not a particularly close friend but a good neighbour who we say hello to in passing. If this develops into anything more I'll get back on here and post anything interesting.

 

[Crossthreaded]

Well, that was interesting. Yesterday my granddaughter (7 years old) and I were doing some gardening in my front garden and we were out there for best part of a couple of hours. I didn't notice my neighbour coming out of the flats opposite and getting into her car but I did hear the noise as she drove past. I listened carefully and it sounds more like a severe piston slap to me? Not really a "sharp enough noise to be cam related and not enough of a "Donk" to be big ends. Little end? not so sure? However the really interesting bit is that when she returned, about an hour later, although I could still hear the noise it was very considerably quieter which would seem to indicate it's being caused by something which expands when it gets hot - so maybe a piston?

She came across and chatted to us for a wee while but didn't mention the noise. I was tempted to raise it but managed not to.

In situations like this I always remember, years ago when I had noticed a car in the car park with a flat tyre and was looking for it's owner to tell them, a work colleague saying to me "don't"! When I asked what he meant he said "never be the bringer of bad news". When I asked how that was relevant he said "if you tell people things which they might associate with trouble or unpleasantness then you will, by association, become a person who they link with this and you'll find yourself becoming unpopular". I haven't generally followed his advice and I don't think I've experienced any down side - interesting point of view though I've always thought?

 

[RUM4MO]

Unfortunately there is more than a hint of "good common sense" with that way of thinking.

When my MIL was alive I used to pick up on things that should really get sorted out before they failed completely, very quickly I changed on that as invariably I had to take the hit for all costs involved, then all her "man friends" would criticise everything I did and make sure that they "fixed it properly" but always in a way that meant that I had to repeat my repair for no thanks! My wife and/or SIL would always try to catch my eye and indicate to "zip up" so as to keep out of trouble. So yes, some people are very hard to help unfortunately.

 

[Big Vinny]

The old 1.4 petrol 16 valve BXW engine is prone to piston slap. I've had 2 where after about 25k miles there is a distinct knocking when cold starting on a cold morning. The knocking goes away after a couple of minutes as the engine warms.

The reason for this is the teflon low friction patches on the piston skirts wear away exposing the metal beneath. There are videos and pictures of this phenomena on line.

 

[Crossthreaded]

The old 1.4 petrol 16 valve BXW engine is prone to piston slap. I've had 2 where after about 25k miles there is a distinct knocking when cold starting on a cold morning. The knocking goes away after a couple of minutes as the engine warms.

The reason for this is the teflon low friction patches on the piston skirts wear away exposing the metal beneath. There are videos and pictures of this phenomena on line.

Thanks Big Vinny. I had this vague memory of having read somewhere about piston problems with these engines and your explanation of what happens to the skirts seems to fit this situation better than any other I can imagine. I shall continue to listen to this one with interest!

 

[Big Vinny]

I have found an image of a very worn 1.4 16v BXW Toca type piston on the web. Note how the black teflon skirt patch is worn right through. I bet this one
will slap a treat !

 

[Crossthreaded]

I have found an image of a very worn 1.4 16v BXW Toca type piston on the web. Note how the black teflon skirt patch is worn right through. I bet this one
will slap a treat !

View attachment 16563

Thanks again B V. I first saw Teflon coated piston skirts quite a few years ago at a drag meeting at Budds Creek (Maryland International Raceway) where a Funny Car engine was being rebuilt between races. I remember thinking at the time what a good idea that was when used in an engine which was being subjected to enormous forces but for only a few minutes at any one time. "Can't see it being used in production engines though" I thought!

I notice my Ibiza 1.0 3 cylinder 95hp ecotsi engine has very similar pistons! now I've got something else to worry about? I was also reflecting on how modern pistons look. Very short skirt lengths and heavily cut away around the small ends, compared to, say, a piston from an "old" BMC "A" series. Look more like I would expect a piston from an engine built for racing would look? OK, I know, reduced weight, reduced friction, etc, but also maybe, reduced life?

 

[Big Vinny]

I completely agree with you. I just looked online at some images of old Toyota Carina pistons because those cars could do mileages likes NCC 1701 the starship Enterprise. The Toyota pistons were deep skirted and completely full round skirted with no low friction patches.

I also used to do work on 1990's Hinckley Triumph Triples and those pistons had a ring of oil distribution holes below the oil control ring to distribute oil from within the piston cavity onto the nitrided bores. These bike in the hands of couriers were known to do upwards of a quarter of a million miles.

 

[RUM4MO]

I bought a slightly used late 1980 Ford Escort 1600 Ghia to replace my previous 1977 Ford 1600 Ghia, and the difference in engine noise when cold was serious, I logged a complaint with Ford UK, I suggested it was due to their funky new low friction pistons/rings, they played a naughty trick that I was not alert to, they dragged this out for over 9 months, gave me access to an independent engineer and he agreed with me, made out his report which Ford UK sent me a copy of "noises normal for a car of its age and miles" - what a waste of time, the miles were low for its age, but Ford seems to have more clout than me, what a surprise! Ah well, I took it as far as I could and failed.

 

[Big Vinny]

I have just seen three Ibiza 1.4 Toca's on eBay UK with 110,000 ish miles (177,000 km) on the clock. All three appeared to be being sold as serviceable cars. So I guess given regular oil and filter servicing engine life worries should not be too much of a concern.

 

[RUM4MO]

I have just seen three Ibiza 1.4 Toca's on eBay UK with 110,000 ish miles (177,000 km) on the clock. All three appeared to be being sold as serviceable cars. So I guess given regular oil and filter servicing engine life worries should not be too much of a concern.

That does not surprise me, I always had the impression that while these 1.4 16V 75/100/86PS engines could be noisy they are reliable.

 

[Crossthreaded]

I can't remember if I've previously mentioned this - forgive me if I have - but the trials and tribulations with this vehicle continue to provide entertainment.

A couple of months, or maybe more, ago, on a very cold icy morning, my neighbour knocked on my door and asked me to give her an opinion as to what she should do about her car - the Ibiza - as it wouldn't start. I asked her to show me what she'd tried so she sat in the car and tried to start it. Immediately it was obvious that the engine was spinning over very fast and sounded like compression was non existent. STOP! I shouted, suspecting it might be a broken cam belt (but knowing, if it was, that the damage would already have been done.)

She has the car regularly serviced by a small local garage and there's no way I wanted to become part of a fault/blaming exercise - been there done that in the past, nasty - So I suggested she contact them for an opinion and how to proceed. They turned up next day with a recovery vehicle and driver but his remote winch control was inoperative (flat battery I think) so I had to steer the car, with dead power steering, whilst it was maneuvered out of the parking bay and then dragged up onto the flatbed with him working the winch controls on the back of the cab. The driver asked me if I knew what was wrong with the vehicle so I was able to describe the symptoms and that I thought it might be a broken cam belt. So off it went.

Later that day she got a phone call telling her they couldn't start it and investigations were ongoing. It wasn't long before the car was back with engine running. A couple of days later I bumped into her whilst getting into my own car and asked what the problem had been. They don't know she said. Apparently they had also thought it was the cam belt because of the symptoms (rapid spin over on cranking and seeming lack of compression) but when they checked the belt it was intact and rotating the cam. They'd tried again, I believe, to start it but without success so the car had been wheeled out and left at the kerbside over night - the garage is a very small one with only room for about 3 cars in the workshop. Next morning it started first twist of the key and has continued to do so ever since!! I notice also that when she's cranking it and before it fires you can clearly hear it's now got compression - it's a very different noise to what it was when it wouldn't start.

So who knows what the problem was, it's for sure I don't and neither does the garage, just got my fingers crossed for her that it doesn't decide to do it again!

 

[RUM4MO]

@Crossthreaded, yes interesting from a technical point of view, even intriguing, maybe time will tell?

Seems like that are still reliable or tough engines so far though, probably like you, I like to get to the bottom of these problems as in time, just hoping to keep lucky just is not going to do much more than bite you on the bottom.

Edit:- I wonder if that car has a faulty engine sensor like a crankshaft or camshaft position sensor that is just starting to fail - maybe if that car was scanned it might reveal something - though not always it seems.

 

[Crossthreaded]

@Crossthreaded, yes interesting from a technical point of view, even intriguing, maybe time will tell?

Seems like that are still reliable or tough engines so far though, probably like you, I like to get to the bottom of these problems as in time, just hoping to keep lucky just is not going to do much more than bite you on the bottom.

Edit:- I wonder if that car has a faulty engine sensor like a crankshaft or camshaft position sensor that is just starting to fail - maybe if that car was scanned it might reveal something - though not always it seems.

I agree with you that good cranking but with no sign of firing would likely point to the crankshaft sensor, and it would be first thing to check out (after scanning for codes). The strange thing about this one was the very rapid cranking speed - It sounded just like an engine which was being cranked with it's plugs removed! Which it doesn't now, you can now clearly hear the starter "working" to take it up to compression on each stroke.

I think this engine has hydraulic cam followers? (we've never had one in the family) I've been thinking, of and on, about what could cause the compression to disappear like it obviously did and it occurs to me that it was absolutely brass monkeys that morning. Could the oil have been so cold that it "jacked" the valves open slightly because it couldn't scavenge from the lifters quickly enough? Nah, unlikely though, or maybe not?

By the way, it continues to tick/rattle/knock away merrily when cold! - but doesn't seem to have got any worse recently.

 

[RUM4MO]

@Crossthreaded, yes they do have hydraulic tappets, but I've never heard about anyone suffering jacking up of these tappets, that does not mean that with using certain "wrong" engine oils it has never happened though. Ford at least early Zetec 16V petrol engines were though to need "correct" oil or they would suffer from that, which was what drove me from using Ford parts department engine oil as I think it took Ford aftermarket maybe 2 or 3 years to bring their aftermarket version of correct oil to the market, well before that time Comma had reacted and provided a suitable oil for these engines maybe called Xtech, and I used that for the life of that Fiesta. Obviously the workshop would be using a suitable oil, but nothing available to the owner for topping up or oil changing, not very good!

Edit:- I was just thinking that when your prognosis turned out to be wrong, that you had gone out with dread in your brain and that influenced your thinking.