Torque setting for ball joint to lower arm nuts
- Thread starter RUM4MO
- Start date
Thanks for that, I am not in a great hurry as some of the spare parts are still in transit!
I've got other (boring) jobs to do today, like cutting grass after being away on holiday for a week, and maybe painting the new springs as they have a few large bits of paint missing on them!
I've got other (boring) jobs to do today, like cutting grass after being away on holiday for a week, and maybe painting the new springs as they have a few large bits of paint missing on them!
Thanks for that, that sounds a reasonable torque level for an M10 fixing, Haynes manual for 6R Polo quotes 100Nm with no extra tightening! That was why I asked this question, if I had applied 100Nm to that fixing, I'm guessing that it might just shear off - and VW Group no longer supply that lower swivel on its on!!
I think that I need to tell Haynes about that error!!
I think that I need to tell Haynes about that error!!
Maybe, but for other fixings Haynes does quote the VW spec of XYNm + 45 or 90 degrees.
I had checked what the correct torque range for M10 fixings were for both the "medium" strength and "high" strength versions and they were well below 100Nm, a maximum of 74Nm is I remember correctly.
I had checked what the correct torque range for M10 fixings were for both the "medium" strength and "high" strength versions and they were well below 100Nm, a maximum of 74Nm is I remember correctly.
Okay, I've just emailed the publishers, Haynes, of that workshop manual about the "100Nm" figure, so I hope that they get back to me, if I'm right it might avoid someone snapping off a stud on that ball joint/swivel assembly, which is a bit important as VW, SEAT etc no longer supply that part, it only comes as part of the lower arm, probably to reduce post repair four wheel realignment being needed, which is something that I should consider and try removing the other nut that retains that ball joint/swivel to the hub carrier - though I seem to remember that space is very limited there which will be why, up to now most people have just removed the 3 fixing bolts from the lower arm<>ball joint fixing point!
Still waiting for parts to get delivered and a hub/drive shaft pressing out tool in case the shafts are too tight in that car as it is now 7.5 years old!
Still waiting for parts to get delivered and a hub/drive shaft pressing out tool in case the shafts are too tight in that car as it is now 7.5 years old!
I've just had a reply from Haynes, that 100Nm is what VW list for that Polo, what you give me is what SEAT list for the equivalent Ibiza!!
Now, that does not seem correct as I believe the value and process you have given me, and all these parts are the same on Polo and Ibiza.
With a company the size of VW Group, I can't believe that they employ technical authors who work in isolation at each of the marques, I'd expect that they will work sensibly and share information and procedures - it just would not make any sense otherwise.
Now, that does not seem correct as I believe the value and process you have given me, and all these parts are the same on Polo and Ibiza.
With a company the size of VW Group, I can't believe that they employ technical authors who work in isolation at each of the marques, I'd expect that they will work sensibly and share information and procedures - it just would not make any sense otherwise.
RUM4MO, yes the polo recomends 100nm.
http://workshop-manuals.com/volkswa...view_subframe_anti-roll_bar_suspension_links/
and its the same part:
http://www.oemepc.com/seat/part_sin...category/407010/part_id/1419317/lang/e#sec_12
http://www.oemepc.com/vw/part_singl...category/407000/part_id/3708047/lang/e#sec_12
http://workshop-manuals.com/volkswa...view_subframe_anti-roll_bar_suspension_links/
and its the same part:
http://www.oemepc.com/seat/part_sin...category/407010/part_id/1419317/lang/e#sec_12
http://www.oemepc.com/vw/part_singl...category/407000/part_id/3708047/lang/e#sec_12
Yes I do accept what Haynes told me, it is just the value of that torque on even a "heavy strength" fastener does look a bit near the material's limit, okay these are "collar nuts" so there will be extra frictional forces being added/carried/taken/stolen by the extra area in contact with the lower arm, but even so it looks a bit close to taking that stud beyond its yield point which is not very safe.
I also accept that maybe these nuts having built in collars will force higher torque tightening figures, it is just that if an DIYer accidentally lubricates the area of the lower arms that the nut collars bear on, then the extra torque, over the normal level suggested for that size of fastening, will get loaded directly onto the stud itself which could over stretch it.
One final comment, in case you do not know, VW Group no longer supply replacement lower bail joint assemblies, if that ball joint fails for any reason, in the VW Group world, that lower arm will need replacing. This might be due to the possibility that releasing these nuts can cause the suspension to become miss aligned - and that would mean a full four wheel realignment, something that a VW Group workshop is trying to prevent a customer needing to pay for.
In short, maybe I should try to avoid releasing these 3 nuts on each side when replacing the springs. That probably means releasing the lower ball joint top nut - but usually access is limited!
I also accept that maybe these nuts having built in collars will force higher torque tightening figures, it is just that if an DIYer accidentally lubricates the area of the lower arms that the nut collars bear on, then the extra torque, over the normal level suggested for that size of fastening, will get loaded directly onto the stud itself which could over stretch it.
One final comment, in case you do not know, VW Group no longer supply replacement lower bail joint assemblies, if that ball joint fails for any reason, in the VW Group world, that lower arm will need replacing. This might be due to the possibility that releasing these nuts can cause the suspension to become miss aligned - and that would mean a full four wheel realignment, something that a VW Group workshop is trying to prevent a customer needing to pay for.
In short, maybe I should try to avoid releasing these 3 nuts on each side when replacing the springs. That probably means releasing the lower ball joint top nut - but usually access is limited!
Just an update on this issue, I have had an order for new lock nuts, item 16 placed with my local VW Van Centre for maybe 6 weeks as they are on back order, in the meantime prior to taking that Ibiza apart, I ordered up all the other nuts and bolts needed for this spring changing job, including the nuts that VW fit to the Polo, now, these nuts that get 100Nm on the Polo are lock nuts with spreader washers formed on them, now that I have removed the same item on the Ibiza, SEAT still use a plain lock nut, which might explain the different method/torque levels as the larger "footprint" of the VW nut will mean extra torque is needed on the nut (mating stud is fixed) to load that stud to the same level as it would be if fitted with a plain lock nut as SEAT did at initial assembly. Time will tell, ie in a few hours I will know if I need to go shopping for a new lower swivel joint!!
Edit:- prompted by dm222's next posting, I am updating this to say that I did use the nuts that VW etc now use in that position and tightened them to 100Nm using the original lower swivel joint with no problems.
Edit:- prompted by dm222's next posting, I am updating this to say that I did use the nuts that VW etc now use in that position and tightened them to 100Nm using the original lower swivel joint with no problems.
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I will get my front shock absorvers replaced at a garage and I'm a little afraid if it will be hard to put all aligned as it is now if they remove those 3 bolts (item 16) instead of the ball joint...
What do you think RUM4MO?
How did you replaced yours?
What do you think RUM4MO?
How did you replaced yours?
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I have always being worried about making sure that the wheel alignment is correct on these cars as there is clearance in these fixing holes, really to allow for a bit of adjustment, though I don't think that VWG would call it "adjustment". Any cars that I had worked on before working on this type of car, there was no need to worry as everything fitted together in the same place - or so I guessed.
If your car ends up being out of alignment, you will soon know about it as the "natural" position for the steering wheel when driving in a straight line will change - if that does not change, then I'd think that everything was back in near enough its original position.
One thing that I did do on my wife's previous 2002 Polo was, I bought a spray can of yellow paint, and after cleaning up that area on the TCA I sprayed it, so that I could use that as a guide to help me get things back in the same position as before. If I was doing that again, I would spray the paint on a few days before starting work, and run a sharp knife blade round the edge of the connecting pieces and also round the securing nuts so that you could work out better when things were in the correct position, probably only do that on the nuts as you can't really see the top area properly. Then maybe reuse the old nuts and tighten them up not quite fully and tap/hit with a hammer to move them and so the plate of the lower swivel, into the correct position, fully tighten all the old nuts, then replace them one at a time with the new ones which will probably have a collar on them unlike the ones originally fitted.
If your car ends up being out of alignment, you will soon know about it as the "natural" position for the steering wheel when driving in a straight line will change - if that does not change, then I'd think that everything was back in near enough its original position.
One thing that I did do on my wife's previous 2002 Polo was, I bought a spray can of yellow paint, and after cleaning up that area on the TCA I sprayed it, so that I could use that as a guide to help me get things back in the same position as before. If I was doing that again, I would spray the paint on a few days before starting work, and run a sharp knife blade round the edge of the connecting pieces and also round the securing nuts so that you could work out better when things were in the correct position, probably only do that on the nuts as you can't really see the top area properly. Then maybe reuse the old nuts and tighten them up not quite fully and tap/hit with a hammer to move them and so the plate of the lower swivel, into the correct position, fully tighten all the old nuts, then replace them one at a time with the new ones which will probably have a collar on them unlike the ones originally fitted.
No, to remove any error caused by that point not being re-assembled in exactly the original position will require these nuts to be slackened. Altering the track rods might reduce the error but never remove it, and so the car would still be slightly misaligned.
vw says its not necessary to realign steering replacing dampers, and yet they recommend to remove the item 16. It's odd.
http://workshop-manuals.com/volkswa...rut/removing_and_installing_suspension_strut/
http://workshop-manuals.com/volkswa...ls_tyres._axle_align/wheel_alignment/general/
http://workshop-manuals.com/volkswa...rut/removing_and_installing_suspension_strut/
http://workshop-manuals.com/volkswa...ls_tyres._axle_align/wheel_alignment/general/
I did as I described, maybe on another thread, by initially fitting some plain nuts that I had, tightened them up enough to hold the TCA and lower swivel together, then used a hammer and blunted chisel to tap these nuts(and the lower swivel assembly) around until I was sure that they were centered about the same three points where the original nuts had been - by using the marks left by the original nuts. I then tightened them up as much as I guessed these nuts would tolerate, then removed these nuts one by one replacing one by one with the new correct self locking nuts each time torqueing them up to the correct value. I forget what clearance is there, but enough to cause misalignment - in my eyes. I'd guess if these studs are M10 then the clearance holes will be roughly 13+mm - but that is a guess based on what I found on that car.
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