biodiesel

[davemotor]

There have been a few threads on using biodiesel in SEATs - thought this bulletin from SEAT might help clarify the situation

SEAT’s TDI engines are unaffected by new legislation on biodiesel in the UK.

The legislation, introduced on 15 April, makes biodiesel a mandatory component in diesel fuel offered at UK pumps. But the ruling, which forces fuel suppliers to use at least 2.5 per cent biofuel in diesel production, does not
change the current situation at SEAT, which approves the use of diesel fuel containing up to five per cent biodiesel in all of its diesel vehicles, the same amount allowed in the UK by motor fuel standard BS EN590.

BS EN590 fuel is also approved for vehicles fitted with a Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF).

SEATs currently have a ‘No Bio Fuel’ sticker on the inside of the filler flap, which relates only to fuel with a biodiesel content of more than five per cent, including 100 per cent biodiesel. None of SEAT’s current production vehicles
are suitable for use with 100 per cent biodiesel, which will decrease engine durability and invalidate the manufacturer’s warranty.

100 per cent biodiesel

A number of older SEAT models are approved to run on 100 per cent Rapeseed Methyl Ester (RME) biodiesel, which is available from a limited number of specialist suppliers. Where 100 per cent RME biodiesel-compatible parts
were fitted during manufacture, the vehicle PR code (found on the data sticker) is 2G0. However, some older vehicles may not have this PR code.

Always refer to the owner’s handbook and factory information regarding the vehicle’s compatibility with biodiesel before using this fuel type.
In vehicles that are 100 per cent biodiesel compatible, SEAT has only approved the use of Rapeseed Methyl Ester (RME) to standard DIN EN14214. No other biodiesel can be used. Additionally, no other diesel substitutes,
especially any type of cooking or industrial oil, should be used as fuel in any circumstances.

Summary

• Vehicles that do not have the factory preparation for biodiesel cannot use 100 per cent biodiesel.
• Vehicles fitted with a common-rail fuel injection system cannot use 100 per cent biodiesel.
• Vehicles fitted with pumpe düse injectors cannot use 100 per cent biodiesel.
• Vehicles fitted with a Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) cannot use 100 per cent biodiesel; however EN590 containing up to five per cent biodiesel is approved for use with DPF.
• 100 per cent biodiesel vehicles cannot be used in temperatures below -10°C.
• The use of 100 per cent biodiesel may slightly reduce the driving performance of the vehicle and slightly
increase the fuel consumption.
• The use of 100 per cent biodiesel may mean the vehicle needs to be serviced more frequently.

 

[Tuscan_No27]

There have been a few threads on using biodiesel in SEATs - thought this bulletin from SEAT might help clarify the situation

SEAT’s TDI engines are unaffected by new legislation on biodiesel in the UK.

The legislation, introduced on 15 April, makes biodiesel a mandatory component in diesel fuel offered at UK pumps. But the ruling, which forces fuel suppliers to use at least 2.5 per cent biofuel in diesel production, does not
change the current situation at SEAT, which approves the use of diesel fuel containing up to five per cent biodiesel in all of its diesel vehicles, the same amount allowed in the UK by motor fuel standard BS EN590.

BS EN590 fuel is also approved for vehicles fitted with a Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF).

SEATs currently have a ‘No Bio Fuel’ sticker on the inside of the filler flap, which relates only to fuel with a biodiesel content of more than five per cent, including 100 per cent biodiesel. None of SEAT’s current production vehicles
are suitable for use with 100 per cent biodiesel, which will decrease engine durability and invalidate the manufacturer’s warranty.

100 per cent biodiesel

A number of older SEAT models are approved to run on 100 per cent Rapeseed Methyl Ester (RME) biodiesel, which is available from a limited number of specialist suppliers. Where 100 per cent RME biodiesel-compatible parts
were fitted during manufacture, the vehicle PR code (found on the data sticker) is 2G0. However, some older vehicles may not have this PR code.

Always refer to the owner’s handbook and factory information regarding the vehicle’s compatibility with biodiesel before using this fuel type.
In vehicles that are 100 per cent biodiesel compatible, SEAT has only approved the use of Rapeseed Methyl Ester (RME) to standard DIN EN14214. No other biodiesel can be used. Additionally, no other diesel substitutes,
especially any type of cooking or industrial oil, should be used as fuel in any circumstances.

Summary

• Vehicles that do not have the factory preparation for biodiesel cannot use 100 per cent biodiesel.
• Vehicles fitted with a common-rail fuel injection system cannot use 100 per cent biodiesel.
• Vehicles fitted with pumpe düse injectors cannot use 100 per cent biodiesel.
• Vehicles fitted with a Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) cannot use 100 per cent biodiesel; however EN590 containing up to five per cent biodiesel is approved for use with DPF.
• 100 per cent biodiesel vehicles cannot be used in temperatures below -10°C.
• The use of 100 per cent biodiesel may slightly reduce the driving performance of the vehicle and slightly
increase the fuel consumption.
• The use of 100 per cent biodiesel may mean the vehicle needs to be serviced more frequently.

There are threads like this on various web forums stating you can't use biodiesel on our engines but I've yet to see anyone qualify reasons why not. For me until I see facts, its just an opinion and probably one started by Mr. Shell.

I've run my Leon FR 150PD for a while now on biodiesel with no ill effects apart from a slight reduction in power but hardly noticeable.

I believe that Seat (or any manufacturer) will not endorse >5% bio blends because it exposes them to a much wider fuel supply-chain including the DIY biodiesel homebrewer whose quality cannot be guarunteed so why should they warranty an engine if the owner is a numptie and put cr*pr in his tank. I take the quality of my bio very seriously and check it using tests that indicate whether it would meet the industry standard but not everyone is as careful.

So don't be put off ! Just make sure you understand what you're doing and make it properly, do the quality tests and enjoy the rewards of 20p per litre And by the way, here in Europe nearly all our vegetable oil is sourced from rapeseed which has a low cloud point to start with making it more resistant to cold tempertures than other oils and hey, when it gets really cold, just add a few litres of dino-diesel to your bio and it'll prevent it thickening.

 

[FR+TDI]

There are threads like this on various web forums stating you can't use biodiesel on our engines but I've yet to see anyone qualify reasons why not. For me until I see facts, its just an opinion and probably one started by Mr. Shell.

I've run my Leon FR 150PD for a while now on biodiesel with no ill effects apart from a slight reduction in power but hardly noticeable.

I believe that Seat (or any manufacturer) will not endorse >5% bio blends because it exposes them to a much wider fuel supply-chain including the DIY biodiesel homebrewer whose quality cannot be guarunteed so why should they warranty an engine if the owner is a numptie and put cr*pr in his tank. I take the quality of my bio very seriously and check it using tests that indicate whether it would meet the industry standard but not everyone is as careful.

So don't be put off ! Just make sure you understand what you're doing and make it properly, do the quality tests and enjoy the rewards of 20p per litre And by the way, here in Europe nearly all our vegetable oil is sourced from rapeseed which has a low cloud point to start with making it more resistant to cold tempertures than other oils and hey, when it gets really cold, just add a few litres of dino-diesel to your bio and it'll prevent it thickening.

Well, just a word of advice, currently in my brilliant local Seat dealer there is an 04 Leon 150tdi which has 4 fuc*ed injectors due to running on bio diesel. Seat have told the owner where to go with regards to any 'goodwill' warranty claim, so now its just parked up there doing nothing & the owner is, apparently, driving around in a hired car. So if you think you're saving money, think again, PD injectors are £350 each! Your choice I think! This may be the reason why Seat/VW do not recommend bio diesel.....

 

[FR+TDI]

Update on my previous posting.
Seat are paying for the repair as it states in the handbook that biodiesel can be used! Dealer has been given stickers to stick on the inside of the fuel flap now stating no biofuel!
Apparently the tank had 2 inches of sludge in the bottom.... Might save money (if you can get Seat to pay for the repair), but with our fantastic climate, the though of breaking down in the rain is enough for me!!

 

[Toledo Steve]

2 Yrs on straight cooking oil.....injector spray patterns just tested absolutely fine. 3 yrs before that on a Rover SDI no problem.... granted mine is a 99 TDI110 see my other posts, like I say "over the years I,ve probably saved the price of your CAR"

 

[TornadoRed]

Summary

• Vehicles that do not have the factory preparation for biodiesel cannot use 100 per cent biodiesel.
• Vehicles fitted with a common-rail fuel injection system cannot use 100 per cent biodiesel.
• Vehicles fitted with pumpe düse injectors cannot use 100 per cent biodiesel.
• Vehicles fitted with a Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) cannot use 100 per cent biodiesel; however EN590 containing up to five per cent biodiesel is approved for use with DPF.
• 100 per cent biodiesel vehicles cannot be used in temperatures below -10°C.
• The use of 100 per cent biodiesel may slightly reduce the driving performance of the vehicle and slightly
increase the fuel consumption.
• The use of 100 per cent biodiesel may mean the vehicle needs to be serviced more frequently. [/I]

I find two things particularly interesting about this list of warnings:
No to biodiesel in TDIs with the CR injection system, and
Not to biodiesel in vehicles with a DPF.

I expect these vehicles will have additional warnings, in even bigger lettering, because the damage is potentially even greater than in the PD engines.

 

[davemotor]

Cant help thinking this thread should be linked to 'FR fuel consumption' We are all driving high performance diesels with great economy on standard fuel. Why the obsession with saving a few quid???? If I wanted 1p a mile running costs I would buy a mountain bike

 

[FR+TDI]

Cant help thinking this thread should be linked to 'FR fuel consumption' We are all driving high performance diesels with great economy on standard fuel. Why the obsession with saving a few quid???? If I wanted 1p a mile running costs I would buy a mountain bike

Well quite! Whilst we are all being Royally fu*ked in the arse by the government for fuel (I also have oil central heating :-( ), if the price of diesel road fuel is that much of a concern, sell the high power diesel guzzler & buy a low power equivalent & enjoy the economy!

 

[Tuscan_No27]

Well, just a word of advice, currently in my brilliant local Seat dealer there is an 04 Leon 150tdi which has 4 fuc*ed injectors due to running on bio diesel. Seat have told the owner where to go with regards to any 'goodwill' warranty claim, so now its just parked up there doing nothing & the owner is, apparently, driving around in a hired car. So if you think you're saving money, think again, PD injectors are £350 each! Your choice I think! This may be the reason why Seat/VW do not recommend bio diesel.....

Its a fair point, and I'm not burying my head in the sand that some day something may fail but my mileage per year is high and if I had to visit the forecourts for my fuel it would cost me £3000 per year ! So in 6 months I have accrued enough savings to pay for those injectors.

I've seen engines stripped down (for other reasons) that have run on good quality biodiesel and they are clean - I suspect the example at your local dealer is one of a numptie who made poor quality biodiesel or just straight veg oil.

 

[Tuscan_No27]

Update on my previous posting.
Seat are paying for the repair as it states in the handbook that biodiesel can be used! Dealer has been given stickers to stick on the inside of the fuel flap now stating no biofuel!
Apparently the tank had 2 inches of sludge in the bottom.... Might save money (if you can get Seat to pay for the repair), but with our fantastic climate, the though of breaking down in the rain is enough for me!!

Just read your follow-up - think this almost verifies my suspicion. There's no way the biodiesel should form sludge in the bottom of his tank unless the guy hadn't separated the glycerol out after the first stage of his process... now that would be really silly. Have you any way of finding out what the sludge was or what it looked like ?

 

[FR+TDI]

Just read your follow-up - think this almost verifies my suspicion. There's no way the biodiesel should form sludge in the bottom of his tank unless the guy hadn't separated the glycerol out after the first stage of his process... now that would be really silly. Have you any way of finding out what the sludge was or what it looked like ?

I was told that it looked like the contents of a chip pan in a semi warmed state with a hint of whiteness.

I think this guy was actually buying it as 'biodiesel' not filtered chip fat.

 

[Tuscan_No27]

I was told that it looked like the contents of a chip pan in a semi warmed state with a hint of whiteness.

I think this guy was actually buying it as 'biodiesel' not filtered chip fat.

I assume that sludge must have been in the fuel when he put it in then because the fuel tank is just metal so there's nothing there that would shed bits or erode to sludge.

You can get fines of flour in the waste oil which are quite sludge like and settle at the bottom but they get flushed out with the wash water. Even then the final biodiesel should be passed through 5 or 1 micron polypropylene cartridge filter to give you confidence that the stuff going in the tank is clean.

Sounds like your chap's supplier hasn't done any of this

 

[cheshire cat]

I was told that it looked like the contents of a chip pan in a semi warmed state with a hint of whiteness.

I think this guy was actually buying it as 'biodiesel' not filtered chip fat.

sounds like glycerine soap and prhaps water, ie all the crap from the bottom of the reactor

 

[Tuscan_No27]

sounds like glycerine soap and prhaps water, ie all the crap from the bottom of the reactor

You're right - it does sound like that. The guy selling this bio is either out of his depth or just a cowboy.

If he were to sample the bio and perform the 27/3 test (see Youtube) it would show that this fuel wouldn't pass the quality standards for commercial biodiesel.

This is why I make it myself and can be sure that it's up to standard before I put it in my car.

 

[Toledo Steve]

My God...I must check my tank...after 2 yrs on straight off the shelf cooking oil. I must have loads of this sludge in there??? ready to be sucked up and (if I,m lucky stop my engine) or badly damage it??? If I can be bothered to have a look see how easy it is to look down into the tank, I will have a look and report back, it will give us a good idea of how clean Sainsburys Rapeseed cooking oil really is. But after 2 yrs, and 3 yrs previously with a Rover 2ltr SDI, it should have shown up by now??? As I said it will allow us to compare the side effects of VO off the shelf, against SVO made up from used oil.

 

[cheshire cat]

I would think you would be fine having used new oil, it mixes well with dino diesel and does not drop out over at least 9 months, the glycerine will only show up at the hot end (like a chip pan) and there is no soap to worry about.

 

[Tuscan_No27]

I would think you would be fine having used new oil, it mixes well with dino diesel and does not drop out over at least 9 months, the glycerine will only show up at the hot end (like a chip pan) and there is no soap to worry about.

Just bear in mind that straight vegetable oil (SVO) and waste veg oil (WVO) are both triglycerides so their droplet size is about 3 or 4 times bigger than a biodiesel (methyl-ester) molecule and may not burn as cleanly.You could get gumming up on your injectors and coking on the valves beause of inefficient combustion. Additionally the viscosity is about 10x greater than biodiesel or dino-diesel so your fuel pump needs to be man enough for the job. Cold weather can cause veg oil to gel.

But there are many engines that can run happily on un-processed oil and good on 'em I say. Pity that nowadays new oil from the supermarket is over a quid a litre which kind of makes the savings marginal.

 

[FR+TDI]

I assume that sludge must have been in the fuel when he put it in then because the fuel tank is just metal so there's nothing there that would shed bits or erode to sludge.

You can get fines of flour in the waste oil which are quite sludge like and settle at the bottom but they get flushed out with the wash water. Even then the final biodiesel should be passed through 5 or 1 micron polypropylene cartridge filter to give you confidence that the stuff going in the tank is clean.

Sounds like your chap's supplier hasn't done any of this

Could be. Incidentally, I do not know the person who owns the Leon! There are a few local biodiesel 'manufacturers', whether they actually do the job correctly is another question!

 

[Toledo Steve]

I have not personally suffered the coked up injectors problem, I recently had my injector spray patterns checked and all was pronounced well by a specialist, they were a bit sooty and the specialist looked a bit surprised when I told him that they had gone 2 yrs on Sainsburys cooking oil...(engine is now on 116,000 miles) the car does a 50 miles round trip (A-roads) every working day, I would dearly like to have a look at the piston crowns and the valves, but she makes no smoke, runs like the day I got her (about 4 yrs now) and is a nice car to drive once you learn where the power comes in in all the gears. (I do though, change the engine oil on all my vehicles every 3 months and don,t use any special oils just whatever is on the shelf at the time.)

 

[Tuscan_No27]

What a superb engine - which one is it - 110hp ?

I suspect you'll be keeping this car for a while