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leon cupra r

Back in an LCR!
Nov 10, 2009
902
0
Barnsley
Hey up everyone, I'm back in an LCR after almost a 2 year break - it's an AMK with a P-Torque stage 1 map, however there seems to be a slight issue with fuelling... I've been doing a bit of searching and reading and running lean definitely seems to be a fairly common issue with the old 1.8T engines...

As far as I can gather, the stock map should be requesting around 0.95 lambda under load, but the general consensus is one of the parameters adjusted during a remap should be the fuelling, which should be richened to 0.8x under load in order to combat pre-combustion as a result of running higher boost+advanced timing?

I have done a couple of logs of block 031 in Vagcom and my car is requesting 0.953 lambda right up to about 6000revs, where it starts to request a slightly richer mixture round the 0.8 mark. As far as I know, this is the correct pattern of fuelling, but is delayed until a bit too far up the rev range - I'm led to believe that it should be richening up from lower down the rev range, around 3-4000 rather than just before the red line?

I understand that fuel supply (filter/pump/fpr) or air supply (boost leak/vac leak/faultyMAF) would affect actual fuelling, but surely the only thing dictating the fuelling request are the parameters defined in the fuel map? Does anyone (hoping Will will read this) know what the P-Torque fuel requests should be as standard to see whether I have an issue with the map itself?

I have also checked my fuel trims, which are currently sitting at 9.0 and -12.5% respectively.

As far as I know the first figure would indicate that I have a vac leak?

When I saw a negative value on the second figure I thought this mean that the engine was running rich and was having to lean out the mix to hit the fuelling requests... I am now thinking this may be the other way around and the engine is infact running lean and trying to richen the mixture - this is because I am receiving a 'bank 1 too lean' error code in Vagcom (I can get the exact fault code later but am in work at the mo).

Can anyone give some advice on this? I have some ideas on what I think is going on but wouldn't mind someone else's view to see how it matches up? I can post my existing logs and I am happy to run more logs if needed.

As far as air goes, boost is hitting requested (around 1.2/1.3bar) and the boost gauge in the car tends to sit happily just below 20psi generally. MAF readings are around 200g/s so these are also as expected (MAF was faulty when I bought car which I have since replaced).

Cheers

Ben
 
Did you log block 001 and check real coolant temps (i.e. not the lies that the temp gauge on the dash tells you) as I suggested?

That said, those trims look very odd. Log block 001 after the car has warmed up properly, observe the coolant temp on the first channel. If that's not within a few degrees of 90 then your thermostat was shot. That's why mine was running lean.

Worth getting your car boost leak tested too. Also check to see if there's a big difference between your actual and requested lambda values in your log.

Post whatever logs you've got here (wrap them in code tags) as that will help.
 
Hey up fella,

Sorry I hadn't seen you had replied on the other post!

The thermostat was shot when I bought the car, temp gauge was down at 60 on a run, but I replaced this the other week. Haven't looked at block 001 specifically but I have seen temps of 90 odd on other blocks (002 or 003 off top of my head) and the dash temp gauge is back to normal now, so as far as I know the stat is ok...

I've gotta go out tonight but I will try and get the logs posted up when I get home - I think the formatting is goosed as I don't have a copy of Office installed on my vagcom laptop so I am pasting straight out of notepad lol.

Cheers

Ben
 
Hey up everyone, I'm back in an LCR after almost a 2 year break - it's an AMK with a P-Torque stage 1 map, however there seems to be a slight issue with fuelling... I've been doing a bit of searching and reading and running lean definitely seems to be a fairly common issue with the old 1.8T engines...

As far as I can gather, the stock map should be requesting around 0.95 lambda under load, but the general consensus is one of the parameters adjusted during a remap should be the fuelling, which should be richened to 0.8x under load in order to combat pre-combustion as a result of running higher boost+advanced timing?

I have done a couple of logs of block 031 in Vagcom and my car is requesting 0.953 lambda right up to about 6000revs, where it starts to request a slightly richer mixture round the 0.8 mark. As far as I know, this is the correct pattern of fuelling, but is delayed until a bit too far up the rev range - I'm led to believe that it should be richening up from lower down the rev range, around 3-4000 rather than just before the red line?

I understand that fuel supply (filter/pump/fpr) or air supply (boost leak/vac leak/faultyMAF) would affect actual fuelling, but surely the only thing dictating the fuelling request are the parameters defined in the fuel map? Does anyone (hoping Will will read this) know what the P-Torque fuel requests should be as standard to see whether I have an issue with the map itself?

I have also checked my fuel trims, which are currently sitting at 9.0 and -12.5% respectively.

As far as I know the first figure would indicate that I have a vac leak?

When I saw a negative value on the second figure I thought this mean that the engine was running rich and was having to lean out the mix to hit the fuelling requests... I am now thinking this may be the other way around and the engine is infact running lean and trying to richen the mixture - this is because I am receiving a 'bank 1 too lean' error code in Vagcom (I can get the exact fault code later but am in work at the mo).

Can anyone give some advice on this? I have some ideas on what I think is going on but wouldn't mind someone else's view to see how it matches up? I can post my existing logs and I am happy to run more logs if needed.

As far as air goes, boost is hitting requested (around 1.2/1.3bar) and the boost gauge in the car tends to sit happily just below 20psi generally. MAF readings are around 200g/s so these are also as expected (MAF was faulty when I bought car which I have since replaced).

Cheers

Ben

If you have logged block 031 like you suggest... You are confirming the MAP on the car is running Bog Stock Factory fueling, whilst running higher boost

Too lean. Map is the cause, not a hardware issue.

Ask them to correct the error.. They are well aware of it !
 
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Ah right! That explains a lot, thanks Bill! I will get in touch with Will...

Does this also explain the block 032 readings going out of spec?

I cleared fault codes to reset fuel trims today then drove up the A1 from Pontefract to Harrogate keeping an eye on block 032 - very steady acceleration and then sitting around 60-70mph...

Multiplicative trim rose steadily up and fluctuated between -6 and -9% - Is this related to the fuelling map issue you stated above? Or would that only come into play under load?

Additive fuel trim stayed within 1% of 0 as obviously the car was not idling, untill I came to a standstill half an hour later, when idle was around 750rpm but a bit lumpy.... I watched as additive fuel trim came up to 4.3%, at which point idle smoothed out, but revs increased to be idling at 1000rpm... Is this indicative of a vac leak? As I can't see it being related to the under-load fuelling map?

Thanks

Ben
 
Block 003 + 031

Apologies for formatting but you can still see the gist of the logs.. - you can see that actual is meeting requested pretty well, but requested is clearly standard levels...
 
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Cleaned up the formatting for you. Top tip - get OpenOffice.org, it's free and does 90% of what M$ Office does ;)

Code:
	Group A:	'003				Group B:	'031				Group C:	 Not Running
		RPM	Mass Flow	Load	Ign. Timing		Lambda Factor	Lambda Factor	Bin. Bits	Bin. Bits		
	TIME					TIME					TIME	
MARKER	STAMP	 /min	 g/s	%	 °ATDC	STAMP					STAMP	
	0	2240	44.39	90.6	18.8	0.3	0.906	1	        	        		
	0.6	2440	58.47	93.7	16.5	0.91	0.961	0.953	        	        		
	1.21	2680	79.72	96.5	12.8	1.51	0.969	0.953	        	        		
	1.81	3000	117.94	99.6	4.5	2.1	0.969	0.953	        	        		
	2.42	3360	145	100	6.8	2.72	0.938	0.953	        	        		
	3.02	3800	148.25	100	9.8	3.31	0.961	0.953	        	        		
	3.62	4160	158.11	100	11.3	3.92	0.945	0.953	        	        		
	4.22	4560	165.28	100	13.5	4.53	0.938	0.953	        	        		
	4.83	4920	178.31	100	12.8	5.13	0.945	0.953	        	        		
	5.43	5280	191.56	100	13.5	5.73	0.938	0.953	        	        		
	6.03	5560	197.14	100	14.3	6.34	0.938	0.953	        	        		
	6.64	5880	199.06	100	15	6.94	0.953	0.953	        	        		
	7.24	6120	203.31	100	15.8	7.55	0.945	0.953	        	        		
	7.85	6360	203.31	99.6	15.8	8.15	0.938	0.953	        	        		
	8.45	6600	199.06	99.6	19.5	8.76	0.883	0.875	        	        		
	9.06	6800	200.94	100	19.5	9.36	0.828	0.828	        	        		
	9.66	7000	200.36	100	21	9.96	0.828	0.821

What gear did you run that in? Doesn't look like many samples for only two blocks in 4th.
 
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Timiing Pull

Don't know if it's of any use but thought I may as well post what logs I have, here is timing pull, not much considering how lean it is running (it's currently drinking V-Power with Millers EcoBoost)

Code:
,Group A:,'003,,,,Group B:,'020,,,,Group C:, Not Running
,,RPM,Mass Flow,Load,Ign. Timing,,Idle Stabilization,Idle Stabilization,Idle Stabilization,Idle Stabilization,,,,,
,TIME,,,,,TIME,,,,,TIME,,,,
MARKER,STAMP, /min, g/s,%, °ATDC,STAMP, CF, CF, CF, CF,STAMP,,,,
,0.30,2000,35.56,85.5,12.0,0.01,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,,,,,
,0.91,2160,47.39,89.4,14.3,0.61,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,,,,,
,1.52,2400,60.89,93.3,14.3,1.21,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,,,,,
,2.12,2680,80.44,96.5,12.0,1.82,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,,,,,
,2.72,3000,113.61,100.0,3.8,2.42,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,,,,,
,3.32,3360,147.81,100.0,6.0,3.02,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,,,,,
,3.93,3800,143.47,100.0,9.8,3.63,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,,,,,
,4.53,4160,152.64,100.0,9.8,4.23,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,,,,,
,5.14,4520,165.28,100.0,13.5,4.83,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,,,,,
,5.74,4880,173.50,99.6,12.8,5.44,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,,,,,
,6.34,5160,186.72,100.0,13.5,6.04,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,,,,,
,6.95,5480,197.44,100.0,13.5,6.65,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,,,,,
,7.55,5760,196.53,100.0,15.0,7.25,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,,,,,
,8.16,6000,201.03,100.0,14.3,7.86,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,,,,,
,8.76,6200,202.17,100.0,13.5,8.46,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,,,,,
,9.36,6400,199.72,99.6,17.3,9.07,3.0,3.0,0.0,0.0,,,,,
,9.96,6600,201.03,100.0,20.3,9.67,3.0,3.0,0.0,0.0,,,,,
,10.57,6760,195.58,99.6,16.5,10.28,3.0,3.0,0.0,3.0,,,,,
,11.18,6920,195.58,70.2,18.8,10.87,3.0,3.0,0.0,3.0,,,,,
 
No I think it was only 2nd or 3rd mate, but I have checked in higher gears and requests stay the same... Cheers I will have a look at sorting some form of Office out lol
 
You'd want 3rd as a minimum, ideally 4th.

Timing pull looks OK, load spec looks a bit low to me. Bill's the expert though.

Code:
	Group A:	'003				Group B:	'020				Group C:	 Not Running
		RPM	Mass Flow	Load	Ign. Timing		Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization		
	TIME					TIME					TIME	
MARKER	STAMP	 /min	 g/s	%	 °ATDC	STAMP	 CF	 CF	 CF	 CF	STAMP	
	0.3	2000	35.56	85.5	12	0.01	0	0	0	0		
	0.91	2160	47.39	89.4	14.3	0.61	0	0	0	0		
	1.52	2400	60.89	93.3	14.3	1.21	0	0	0	0		
	2.12	2680	80.44	96.5	12	1.82	0	0	0	0		
	2.72	3000	113.61	100	3.8	2.42	0	0	0	0		
	3.32	3360	147.81	100	6	3.02	0	0	0	0		
	3.93	3800	143.47	100	9.8	3.63	0	0	0	0		
	4.53	4160	152.64	100	9.8	4.23	0	0	0	0		
	5.14	4520	165.28	100	13.5	4.83	0	0	0	0		
	5.74	4880	173.5	99.6	12.8	5.44	0	0	0	0		
	6.34	5160	186.72	100	13.5	6.04	0	0	0	0		
	6.95	5480	197.44	100	13.5	6.65	0	0	0	0		
	7.55	5760	196.53	100	15	7.25	0	0	0	0		
	8.16	6000	201.03	100	14.3	7.86	0	0	0	0		
	8.76	6200	202.17	100	13.5	8.46	0	0	0	0		
	9.36	6400	199.72	99.6	17.3	9.07	3	3	0	0		
	9.96	6600	201.03	100	20.3	9.67	3	3	0	0		
	10.57	6760	195.58	99.6	16.5	10.28	3	3	0	3		
	11.18	6920	195.58	70.2	18.8	10.87	3	3	0	3
 
Last edited:
You'd want 3rd as a minimum, ideally 4th.

Timing pull looks OK, load spec looks a bit low to me. Bill's the expert though.

Yeah I know, was only a quick log on my way to work the other morning so couldn't really use the higher gears... Gives an idea of what is going on at least. I know higher gears would see more CFs as obviously the engine would be under load + increasing temps for longer, but for fuelling purposes don't think there is a huge difference...

OK hopefully you can explain what Load spec is in this context? I've no idea and keep seeing many different measurements simply labelled as 'load' in Vagcom and always wonder what each one is!

Cheers
 
Another couple of things might be worth noting - When I bought the car I realised the MAF was knackered so ran with it unplugged for a night until I could source a new one - with MAF unplugged the engine idles fine at 750-800rpm, when MAF is connected (even brand new Bosch from GSF) Idle goes back up to 1000rpm...

Also I noticed last night that the temp reading on block 118 is only reading 20 odd degrees - I'm pretty sure this is the EGT reading and so should be a few hundred degrees? I'm aware that this combined with the lean running conditions means I should be avoiding very hard acceleration as high temps are not going to be picked up and the engine will not pull back to cool things down in there, but I just want to know whether this would affect the idling problem?

Cheers
 
Ah right! That explains a lot, thanks Bill! I will get in touch with Will...

Does this also explain the block 032 readings going out of spec?

I cleared fault codes to reset fuel trims today then drove up the A1 from Pontefract to Harrogate keeping an eye on block 032 - very steady acceleration and then sitting around 60-70mph...

Multiplicative trim rose steadily up and fluctuated between -6 and -9% - Is this related to the fuelling map issue you stated above? Or would that only come into play under load?

Additive fuel trim stayed within 1% of 0 as obviously the car was not idling, untill I came to a standstill half an hour later, when idle was around 750rpm but a bit lumpy.... I watched as additive fuel trim came up to 4.3%, at which point idle smoothed out, but revs increased to be idling at 1000rpm... Is this indicative of a vac leak? As I can't see it being related to the under-load fuelling map?

Thanks

Ben

block 032 is something else possibly. its not fuel request related
get it smoke tested for leaks.. they leak like a sive from their vac pipes around the pcv system... rotted split pipes on 80% cars I see come thru here.
 
How's everything going Bill? Hope you're ok.

if you load current driver on your ECM Titanium it will at least now have LAMFA correctly which you can adjust now.... Still did'nt have KFLBTS tho.... last I looked. At least this will allow you to fuel request as desired unlike the driver when you did this car originally.

The ECM "limit of lambda" remains a crok of sh1t map reference.. Its Lambdakennfeld bei Teillast in reality, lambda at part load, which aint one to adjust, Ever!

LCR-ECM_tit_ols_lamfa.JPG
 
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Another couple of things might be worth noting - When I bought the car I realised the MAF was knackered so ran with it unplugged for a night until I could source a new one - with MAF unplugged the engine idles fine at 750-800rpm, when MAF is connected (even brand new Bosch from GSF) Idle goes back up to 1000rpm...

Also I noticed last night that the temp reading on block 118 is only reading 20 odd degrees - I'm pretty sure this is the EGT reading and so should be a few hundred degrees? I'm aware that this combined with the lean running conditions means I should be avoiding very hard acceleration as high temps are not going to be picked up and the engine will not pull back to cool things down in there, but I just want to know whether this would affect the idling problem?

Cheers

118 is inlet air temps, actual boost, N75 duty cycle etc
112 are egt's which wil fuel dump from 920c trigger point

look for an airleak dude...
 
block 032 is something else possibly. its not fuel request related
get it smoke tested for leaks.. they leak like a sive from their vac pipes around the pcv system... rotted split pipes on 80% cars I see come thru here.

I thought 032 was fuel trims? Two readings, first being additive (adaption at idle) and second multiplicative (adjustment under part throttle)? Source

118 is inlet air temps, actual boost, N75 duty cycle etc
112 are egt's which wil fuel dump from 920c trigger point

look for an airleak dude...

Ah right that puts my mind at rest, I thought my EGT was goosed and have read they are not a cheap sensor!
 
OK an update to this, I've found the vac leak - the carbon cannister was the culprit - hopefully this might save someone forking out on new pipework in the future! The top of the valve (from the TIP/inlet mani) is not sealing to the unit and the gubbins underneath the cap that normally ticks is missing (nice and quiet though!!). I've just put a bit of gaffa tape over the underside of the cap to make a seal and stop thte vac leak and low and behold idle is now back to normal and MPG is way back up where it should be in the mid 30s instead of mid 20s.

I cleared fault codes to reset fuel trims and idle trim is now much better, less than 1% out, although multiplicative trim looks like it might be creeping back up a little... I've got the battery disconnected to reset the ECU completely and will see what it's like tomorrow.

Fuelling under WOT is still at stock levels though so the remap still needs looking at, but at least the other issues are sorted :)

Question - I understand a lot of people remove the carbon cannister as there is no use for it in the UK - am I okay to leave the pipe back to the TIP blocked off? I presume the fuel tank will just vent out the top of the carbon cannister under the bonnet which is surely the same as people venting behind the headlights etc with the cannister removed? I'm getting an 'EVAP incorrect flow' fault code, but it's not throwing an EML so no biggy there...

Ben
 
I thought 032 was fuel trims? Two readings, first being additive (adaption at idle) and second multiplicative (adjustment under part throttle)? Source



Ah right that puts my mind at rest, I thought my EGT was goosed and have read they are not a cheap sensor!

032 IS fuel trims yes, but NOT related to your fuel request in map
It is indicative of leaks where it has to learn "adapt" values outside of the "norm" accommodating variances in the car, wear and tear, aging of sensors, but in the main you will see high numbers when you have vacuum leaks - Very Very Very Very common ;)
 
Question - I understand a lot of people remove the carbon cannister as there is no use for it in the UK - am I okay to leave the pipe back to the TIP blocked off? I presume the fuel tank will just vent out the top of the carbon cannister under the bonnet which is surely the same as people venting behind the headlights etc with the cannister removed? I'm getting an 'EVAP incorrect flow' fault code, but it's not throwing an EML so no biggy there...

Ben


faultcode would have been your leak.

Why remove it, its there to inhale fuel tank fumes and reburn them thru intake.

it can be coded out in software btw

get a smoke test done... it will confirm alls ok, or reveal other leaks you are unware of as yet. like the video below from only yesterday...

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151309411118183
 
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