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Cam belt and Water pump

Neil T

Active Member
Aug 5, 2020
10
4
Hey all

I have not long had my Leon 1.4 FR
The place that I got it from is going to be doing my cam belt and said that I'll have to pay for the water pump.( I'm happy to do that) but they are saying the water pump is on the other side to the cam belt. And it doesn't make sense to change it if it don't need it.
So I'm asking it this true and am I better off still getting it done at the same time or leaving it. As most my car's I have had the cam belt drives the water pump

Thank you in advance for your help
 

Cuprabenwytm

Active Member
Jun 17, 2020
90
28
I always thought the water pump was powered by the belt apart from the auxiliary water pump wich is electric not sure if your model has one those tho

Sent from my MRD-LX1 using Tapatalk
 
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Soundlab

Active Member
Sep 14, 2019
40
10
I was in the same position in the summer (1.4 FR). Booked to have the cam belt done and had assumed the water pump would need doing also - so requested that too. They contacted me after the job to say that they didn't need to do the water pump and that it was on the other side.
 
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Neil T

Active Member
Aug 5, 2020
10
4
Ok thank you for your advice it the 1st time I have heard it not together so wasn't sure if they were trying to have me on. Did they say if the water pump was a big job to do by its self
 

Soundlab

Active Member
Sep 14, 2019
40
10
To be honest, I didn't ask. They said it didn't need to be done with the cam belt and that there was nothing wrong with what was already fitted, so I left it there.
 
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RUM4MO

Active Member
Jun 4, 2008
6,493
522
South Scotland
I'm guessing that the only time that would replace the water pump would be if the housing at that end of the engine started leaking I'm also thinking that these water pumps will have a "modern" price and not sweetie money like the cambelt driven ones. I could be wrong though and if the plastic housing started to leak maybe workshops are just fitting the old pump back on with a seal gasket.
 

Crossthreaded

Active Member
Apr 16, 2019
309
70
So this is an EA211 family engine? - of course it is if the water pump is on the other end of the head to the timing belt. It's driven off the back end of one of the cams (exhaust?) by a small toothed belt and has nothing to do with the main timing belt which is on the other end of the engine on the drivers side of the car. The pump has a black plastic cover which protects the belt which drives it. You can see it in the first picture in this article at the top of the engine: https://uk.motor1.com/news/430137/3m-milestone-ea211-vw-engine/

When a timing belt is being done this cover has to be removed so that the locking tools which immobilize the cams can be installed but neither the pump or the little belt which drives it need to be dismantled, just that cover to be removed. All the "action" takes place at the other end of the engine. So you can see there is no need to disturb or replace the pump if it's running all right.

Here's an example of the pump and it's little drive belt (not the right one for our actual engine, but it gives you the idea): https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-OEM-...696562?hash=item1a9ab4e6f2:g:R2UAAOSw~tpfv7Bt
It's a modular set up and includes the two thermostats - yes, just to add to the complication, as if there wasn't enough already - our engines have two thermostats!

I've been giving a lot of thought to this pump as my timing belt is going to be renewed this coming spring. My immediate "gut" feeling was to get it done but I think that's because I've become so used to having engines where the water pump is part of the timing belt drive train - So if the pump bearings fail the belt is very likely to either jump teeth or come off altogether which is often terminal for the engine as the pistons and valves will become indecently intimate! However with the pump not being involved with the timing belt setup at all - to renew it the only shared operation would be removing that little black cover - I've decided to leave it alone with the one caveat that they carefully check the condition and tension on the wee "mini" belt when they've got the cover off. My only slight worry is that there have been a small number of reports of water leaks due to warping of the plastic body allowing leaks round the seals. I really have to ask why oh why make a component like this which is going to be subject to repeated heat cycles (and maybe excessive heat if something goes a wee bit wrong) out of PLASTIC? They (all the manufacturers) have been making engine parts out of plastic for years and warping remains a big problem. But I suppose it's saving them at least half a crown on every engine so they'll carry on - as long as it gets out of warranty before it becomes troublesome eh? I tend to have a regular weekly regime of under bonnet checking, inherited from years of running bangers when I was younger and my interest in older vehicles to this day. So I think, as long as I carefully keep an eye on coolant level, I'll catch it if a leak starts, before any harm is done.

PS At least we can rejoice in the fact that they didn't saddle us with a dual mass flywheel (or that is to say my 1.0 litre 3 cylinder 95hp CHZB doesn't have one.) Anyone know if any of the petrol variants do? - And those of us with the 3 cylinder engines don't have balance shafts either! just that "clever" intentionally out of balance flywheel.
 
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SuperV8

Active Member
May 30, 2019
150
55
So this is an EA211 family engine? - of course it is if the water pump is on the other end of the head to the timing belt. It's driven off the back end of one of the cams (exhaust?) by a small toothed belt and has nothing to do with the main timing belt which is on the other end of the engine on the drivers side of the car. The pump has a black plastic cover which protects the belt which drives it. You can see it in the first picture in this article at the top of the engine: https://uk.motor1.com/news/430137/3m-milestone-ea211-vw-engine/

When a timing belt is being done this cover has to be removed so that the locking tools which immobilize the cams can be installed but neither the pump or the little belt which drives it need to be dismantled, just that cover to be removed. All the "action" takes place at the other end of the engine. So you can see there is no need to disturb or replace the pump if it's running all right.

Here's an example of the pump and it's little drive belt (not the right one for our actual engine, but it gives you the idea): https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-OEM-...696562?hash=item1a9ab4e6f2:g:R2UAAOSw~tpfv7Bt
It's a modular set up and includes the two thermostats - yes, just to add to the complication, as if there wasn't enough already - our engines have two thermostats!

I've been giving a lot of thought to this pump as my timing belt is going to be renewed this coming spring. My immediate "gut" feeling was to get it done but I think that's because I've become so used to having engines where the water pump is part of the timing belt drive train - So if the pump bearings fail the belt is very likely to either jump teeth or come off altogether which is often terminal for the engine as the pistons and valves will become indecently intimate! However with the pump not being involved with the timing belt setup at all - to renew it the only shared operation would be removing that little black cover - I've decided to leave it alone with the one caveat that they carefully check the condition and tension on the wee "mini" belt when they've got the cover off. My only slight worry is that there have been a small number of reports of water leaks due to warping of the plastic body allowing leaks round the seals. I really have to ask why oh why make a component like this which is going to be subject to repeated heat cycles (and maybe excessive heat if something goes a wee bit wrong) out of PLASTIC? They (all the manufacturers) have been making engine parts out of plastic for years and warping remains a big problem. But I suppose it's saving them at least half a crown on every engine so they'll carry on - as long as it gets out of warranty before it becomes troublesome eh? I tend to have a regular weekly regime of under bonnet checking, inherited from years of running bangers when I was younger and my interest in older vehicles to this day. So I think, as long as I carefully keep an eye on coolant level, I'll catch it if a leak starts, before any harm is done.

PS At least we can rejoice in the fact that they didn't saddle us with a dual mass flywheel (or that is to say my 1.0 litre 3 cylinder 95hp CHZB doesn't have one.) Anyone know if any of the petrol variants do? - And those of us with the 3 cylinder engines don't have balance shafts either! just that "clever" intentionally out of balance flywheel.
I think you're covered it there pal,
Just one point to add I notice a comment in the maintenance schedule:
Check the condition of the coolant pump drive belt; renew if necessary *first check at 240,000 km; then every 30,000 km

Incidentally the pump isn't expensive:
04E121600CR

Regarding the plastic - simply down to cost - if you're making millions of these things then tooling the parts in plastic is cheaper. I'm sure it works 'fine' when the engine's operating perfectly but probably its probably marginal if things overheat or serviced by a 100kg gorilla!
 
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Crossthreaded

Active Member
Apr 16, 2019
309
70
I think you're covered it there pal,
Just one point to add I notice a comment in the maintenance schedule:
Check the condition of the coolant pump drive belt; renew if necessary *first check at 240,000 km; then every 30,000 km

Incidentally the pump isn't expensive:
04E121600CR

Regarding the plastic - simply down to cost - if you're making millions of these things then tooling the parts in plastic is cheaper. I'm sure it works 'fine' when the engine's operating perfectly but probably its probably marginal if things overheat or serviced by a 100kg gorilla!
That's really handy to have the belt check interval (I haven't actually looked for it yet). I'm pleasantly surprised at the price of the pump but the kits I'm looking at seem to require you to transfer the plastic casings - and maybe the thermostats etc. I'd probably be looking at renewing the thermostats and I'm not sure what I think about reusing the plastic bits. Anyway, plenty of time to ask the lads at AVW what they advise. The job doesn't look as if it would be a hard one to do but I have read a few folk saying that it's prone to air locking when refilling?

On the other hand I'm still besotted with the idea of a Honda. So maybe I'll not have the Ibiza for long enough to be worrying about the water pump!
 

SuperV8

Active Member
May 30, 2019
150
55
That's really handy to have the belt check interval (I haven't actually looked for it yet). I'm pleasantly surprised at the price of the pump but the kits I'm looking at seem to require you to transfer the plastic casings - and maybe the thermostats etc. I'd probably be looking at renewing the thermostats and I'm not sure what I think about reusing the plastic bits. Anyway, plenty of time to ask the lads at AVW what they advise. The job doesn't look as if it would be a hard one to do but I have read a few folk saying that it's prone to air locking when refilling?

On the other hand I'm still besotted with the idea of a Honda. So maybe I'll not have the Ibiza for long enough to be worrying about the water pump!
That number is for the pump assembly including impeller and plastic case:
1606752638391.png

there are also two separate part numbers available for the two thermostats.

Best to vacuum fill coolant systems to avoid airlocks.
 
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Crossthreaded

Active Member
Apr 16, 2019
309
70
That number is for the pump assembly including impeller and plastic case:
View attachment 20162
there are also two separate part numbers available for the two thermostats.

Best to vacuum fill coolant systems to avoid airlocks.
Just had a bizarre thought - It looks more like an artificial mechanical heart for something like a dinosaur than what I would recognize as a water pump? Oh dear, must be lockdown fever!

Thanks though Super V8. All that info is much appreciated. I don't own a vacuum filler kit yet, although they seem to be available around the £30 or less mark on ebay. I do have a nice big compressor though so perhaps I should invest in one. I'm not planning on giving up "messing" with cars anytime soon.
 

SuperV8

Active Member
May 30, 2019
150
55
Just had a bizarre thought - It looks more like an artificial mechanical heart for something like a dinosaur than what I would recognize as a water pump? Oh dear, must be lockdown fever!

Thanks though Super V8. All that info is much appreciated. I don't own a vacuum filler kit yet, although they seem to be available around the £30 or less mark on ebay. I do have a nice big compressor though so perhaps I should invest in one. I'm not planning on giving up "messing" with cars anytime soon.
If you already have a compressor - then you probably already have a vacuum pump!

Just need to find the inlet pipe to the compressor - and stick a vacuum gauge on there and see how much she can chooch (-25 to -30inHg seems to be about what you need to do a vacuum coolant fill)

The venturi vacuum pumps are ok ( I think they struggle to get to -25inHg) - but an actual compressor will probably pull more vacuum - in the actual Seat manual for my TDI it gives you different procedure for filling the coolant system depending on if you have an actual vacuum pump, or venturi pump - with the venturi type requiring additional bleeding because it can't pull as much vacuum, so there would be potentially more air still in the system.

I've been working out this exact system for my own coolant flush/fill - I tried a vacuum gauge on the inlet of my garage compressor the other day and it easily pulled -30inHg vacuum, which is basically a full vacuum.

Then all you need is a tee piece with a couple of shut off valves, some pipe, and a cap with a port to connect to the car header tank (simple to make a flat disc with simple pipe connection and a rubber/silicone gasket the same dia as the coolant tank filler neck) one side of the tee goes to the vacuum compressor, the other side goes to a pipe which goes into your pre-mixed new coolant. The remaining side of the tee goes to your header tank connection.
Coolant valve shut (prime this pipe to the coolant so it's full of coolant - no air), vacuum pump valve open, then pull a vacuum on the system (be handy to have a vacuum gauge on the vacuum pump side).
shut the vacuum pump valve, then - slowly- open the coolant valve (ensuring the pip is filled with coolant) and watch the coolant get pulled into the system.

I'm sure those £30 venturi vacuum kits will work ok but - maybe its just me - If I can make a kit out of parts I already have in the garage then i'd rather do that for free!

I haven't given up getting dirty with cars either! especially when garages charge so much for simple jobs!
 
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Crossthreaded

Active Member
Apr 16, 2019
309
70
Now you've got me thinking. I've made many tools for myself over the years and, like you, I actually prefer to do this rather than just handing over the money for something, sometimes, of inferior quality and/or functionality.

My compressor is a 3 hp Wolf Dakota with a quoted CFM of 14 (so probably around 9 CFM free air delivery.) with a 90 litre tank. I run it at 125 psi (makers claim it can be run at 150 but with reduced life expectancy. I've got a picture of it somewhere which I'll try to post. I imagine it will be able to comfortably exceed the spec for this task. However I find myself wondering about a few things. If I pull as good a vacuum as I think I can won't there be a risk of something like the radiator matrix or heater matrix or something else actually collapsing (imploding)? and how will the compressor like being used in this way - is it not likely that oil will be drawn (sucked) up into the upper cylinder causing contamination? I'm sure something else will occur to me if I think about it long enough.
 

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SuperV8

Active Member
May 30, 2019
150
55
No, the Seat procedure shows pulling a vacuum of -1 bar which is = -29.53inHg - which is the maximum vacuum which can be pulled by a standard vacuum pump, so no worry to your coolant system. You're compressor could not pull more vacuum than this.

1606902558902.png


Looking at the cheap ebay vacuum coolant tools - I can't see any which quote maximum vacuum they can pull - may be ok - who knows? but it's interesting that Seat specifically say for my TDI: if a vacuum pump is available - use it! as there will be less air in the system.
It also says - if you are using the vacuum venturi fill method the needle should stay in the green zone - which is between -0.85 and -0.95 = Which is between 5% - 18% air left in the system.

1606903048305.png


On your compressor you may need to take some plastic covers off? You are looking for an air inlet port - should have a filter over it.

You will need a vacuum gauge, some pipe and some small ball valves, a tee piece and a way to connect to your header tank (thinking some thick plastic with a pipe connection screwed into it and a rubber/silicone seal?).

My compressor has a simple pipe to a foam filter (can't see that on your pic) - I switched this pipe for my vacuum gauge and hey presto -1 bar. I'm sure this will be fine for short a duration.
 

RUM4MO

Active Member
Jun 4, 2008
6,493
522
South Scotland
I'd think that pulling a vac on the cooling system might annoy a compressor unless you change the oil a few times after using it for this, as the pressure drops below ambient the coolant will gas off and that will end up in the compressor oil.

Surely small garages and DIYer will continue to use the old method which will include easing off every pipe in turn to try to let any trapped air escape, I'd think by doing that you can be sure that none of the pumps will run dry, okay it will take some time to clear all the trapped air which is not an issue for a DIYer, these vac coolant systems will allow a dealership to get it right first time, well almost as many new VW Group models seem to continue getting rid of air for a few weeks after delivery new.

Or is there more to this?
 

Glosphil

Active Member
Nov 10, 2004
116
42
Gloucestershire
The water pump on my 2018 Leon FR 1.4TSI (150) was replaced under warranty at 15 months & 16K miles as it was leaking. I never realised it had a plastic body - stupid attempt at cost cutting/weight cutting.
 
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Crossthreaded

Active Member
Apr 16, 2019
309
70
I'd think that pulling a vac on the cooling system might annoy a compressor unless you change the oil a few times after using it for this, as the pressure drops below ambient the coolant will gas off and that will end up in the compressor oil.

Surely small garages and DIYer will continue to use the old method which will include easing off every pipe in turn to try to let any trapped air escape, I'd think by doing that you can be sure that none of the pumps will run dry, okay it will take some time to clear all the trapped air which is not an issue for a DIYer, these vac coolant systems will allow a dealership to get it right first time, well almost as many new VW Group models seem to continue getting rid of air for a few weeks after delivery new.

Or is there more to this?
As you say RUM, but I'm slightly worried about the 2 thermostats. I find it's often the resistance to flow of the thermostat which causes air locking. Not too bad with just one as the top hose isn't going to get hot if the water is not flowing - but with 2? I'll definitely be having a chat with Allan or Keith before attempting this. Or maybe they will convince me it'll just be better to let them do it if needed?

These days I actually find I enjoy working on our old Fiat Panda but rather dread laying hands on the Ibiza. I'm going to be bricking it when I have to tackle that front caliper again!
 
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