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Cat chat

lawrieIbizaMk4

Team Boc!
Aug 31, 2009
3,498
4
Milngavie, Glasgow
www.bebo.com
Righto lads and ladies. Had the milltek cat back fitted and I'm now onto exhaust project stage 2 :)

I want to install a 200 cell sports cat without paying the ridiculous price milltek ask for it (the cat back was expensive as it is lol) Basically I don't know wether to have a whole new down pipe fabricated with the sports cat or just get my guy to piece in a new cat to the existing down pipe in place of the oem one. Is there benefits to be had by having a whole new one made up? I don't want to reduce the back pressure too much so it will be staying standard bore size (70mm I believe)

Any contributions are much appreciated


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Beazy

Active Member
Sep 21, 2011
261
0
I'd say get a new downpipe with the sports cat made up, the 'tek downpipe and cat price is ridiculous. Should be half the price of what they charge I'd imagine.

I wouldn't re-use the standard setup though, whole point of getting rid is to free up some back pressure (still going to have plenty with the de-cat but still less than the standard setup). It was explained to me once that the turbo operates via a pressure ratio, less pressure at the back means it's more efficient at the front... He got all technical after that but basically dumbed it down to me by saying imagine a traffic jam in your exhaust, well that's back pressure and you want as little of it as possible near the turbo.

I'm unsure on the standard size but I think it's 2.5" and most people seem to step up to 3" then down to 2.75" or 2.5" depending on their exhaust.
 

lawrieIbizaMk4

Team Boc!
Aug 31, 2009
3,498
4
Milngavie, Glasgow
www.bebo.com
The milltek cat back is definitely 2.75 so I guess it would be too much of a leap from 3" down from the downpipe. These cars apparently do need some back pressure, the less pressure the more oil the turbo lets into the exhaust apparently.

Thanks or the reply though :) pretty sold on just getting a new one made up
 

lucifer666

Active Member
Dec 17, 2006
1,460
7
Cardiff
I can give you some help here.

I have a 3" decat downpipe custom made. I butchered my old downpipe to use the flange because they are like gold dust. I wish i hadnt now because i had to make my own out of 10mm steel, to fit my old downpipe back for warrenty purposes and mot.
Moral of the story, keep original parts!!!!

Good points:

1. Engine temps have improved massivley, engine seems smoother and mpg are
increased by 2mpg

2. Peak power feels very strong


Bad points:

1. Due to the lack of backpreassure, although not confirmed it is suspected that overspool happens at full throttle when using kickdown or during a 1/4mile drag race in 3rd gear. This causes a spike in torque and dsg to change gear on its own. In the case of the kickdown you can feel the cars power and im assuming throttle being feathered for a second before the acceleration resumes at the expected rate.

This could be solved with a map designed for a decat. revo stage 2 although advertised as suitable for decat, is not. It was only tested on a milltek system which has the 200cel cat.

2. I have been getting the odd puff of white smoke after coasting to a junction and re-applying the gas. I believe this is again due to the way the turbo bearing seals have been set up. Because of the lack of back preassure, some oil is pushed passed the seals on occasion. Only noticed on short journeys of 3miles or less. probably because the seals havnt expanded due to operating temp not been reached yet.


My recommendations:

1. Keep your existing downpipe. Get the custom exhaust place make a bolt on bolt off flange under the car where your milltek cat back starts. You can then jack the car up come warrenty time and quickly unbolt your custom unit and replace with the original.

2. The best exhaust for a turbo car is no exhaust, the standard downpipe is something like 2.3". I would go for 3" or your gain in performance will be minimal and its the size of the downpipe that gives the gain in performance.

3. To overcome my problems I would get the 200cell cat with the 3". That would give the back preassure that im lacking and would solve the problems I have had.

4. The cat needs to be as far away from the turbo as possible, ie just before the start of the cat back milltek section. That will give better performance. Supersprint have their cat under the car. If you look at the boost pipes, they almost touch the current cat on the car so you are getting heat transfer from the cat to the boost pipes. You want max temp in the exhaust for faster gas flow and minimum boost temp because the colder the air, the more dense it is which equates more power.

I paid 270 for my decat downpipe. Before it is fitted, give them some high temp paint and exhaust wrap made of titanium and it will be better insulated. It will speed up the flow and decrease engine bay temps and therefore decrease intake temps.
 

lawrieIbizaMk4

Team Boc!
Aug 31, 2009
3,498
4
Milngavie, Glasgow
www.bebo.com
I can give you some help here.

I have a 3" decat downpipe custom made. I butchered my old downpipe to use the flange because they are like gold dust. I wish i hadnt now because i had to make my own out of 10mm steel, to fit my old downpipe back for warrenty purposes and mot.
Moral of the story, keep original parts!!!!

Good points:

1. Engine temps have improved massivley, engine seems smoother and mpg are
increased by 2mpg

2. Peak power feels very strong


Bad points:

1. Due to the lack of backpreassure, although not confirmed it is suspected that overspool happens at full throttle when using kickdown or during a 1/4mile drag race in 3rd gear. This causes a spike in torque and dsg to change gear on its own. In the case of the kickdown you can feel the cars power and im assuming throttle being feathered for a second before the acceleration resumes at the expected rate.

This could be solved with a map designed for a decat. revo stage 2 although advertised as suitable for decat, is not. It was only tested on a milltek system which has the 200cel cat.

2. I have been getting the odd puff of white smoke after coasting to a junction and re-applying the gas. I believe this is again due to the way the turbo bearing seals have been set up. Because of the lack of back preassure, some oil is pushed passed the seals on occasion. Only noticed on short journeys of 3miles or less. probably because the seals havnt expanded due to operating temp not been reached yet.


My recommendations:

1. Keep your existing downpipe. Get the custom exhaust place make a bolt on bolt off flange under the car where your milltek cat back starts. You can then jack the car up come warrenty time and quickly unbolt your custom unit and replace with the original.

2. The best exhaust for a turbo car is no exhaust, the standard downpipe is something like 2.3". I would go for 3" or your gain in performance will be minimal and its the size of the downpipe that gives the gain in performance.

3. To overcome my problems I would get the 200cell cat with the 3". That would give the back preassure that im lacking and would solve the problems I have had.

4. The cat needs to be as far away from the turbo as possible, ie just before the start of the cat back milltek section. That will give better performance. Supersprint have their cat under the car. If you look at the boost pipes, they almost touch the current cat on the car so you are getting heat transfer from the cat to the boost pipes. You want max temp in the exhaust for faster gas flow and minimum boost temp because the colder the air, the more dense it is which equates more power.

I paid 270 for my decat downpipe. Before it is fitted, give them some high temp paint and exhaust wrap made of titanium and it will be better insulated. It will speed up the flow and decrease engine bay temps and therefore decrease intake temps.

Now that's what I call a useful reply :D thanks very much mate, will be going into the exhaust place armed with this on Friday. If he can't get a flange sorted then I'll be going elsewhere lol. Is there any sensors on the down pipes on these cars? Not had a chance to look under mine.

Also a thought...the further away the cat, the less the boost temp, could this not be improved further by actually fitting a decat downpipe and piecing a cat into the milltek cat back system instead? Or is there still a limit on how close to the turbo it has to be?


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lucifer666

Active Member
Dec 17, 2006
1,460
7
Cardiff
Making a flange is a bitch too. Took me about 11 hours but im hardly a proffessional.

Yeah putting the cat towards the back would work.

The further away the cat is the less restriction there is for the turbo exhaust gas to exit. Thats why the downpipe is the most important part. By the time the gas is under the car the temperature of the gas will be less. Also the further away this cat is from the boost pipe, the better.

The only thing that will be a small downside of the cat right at the back is it will take longer to get up to operating temperature. That wont damage anything but probably wont make the emmissions standard as soon as the engine is started up. Just means mot time you will have to get the engine nice and warm before dropping your car in.

Btw, where the exhaust bends under the car at the end of the downpipe, you will have to go from 3" to 2.5" and have the flexipipe in 2.5". Thats just becuase its soooo tight under there.
 

AL90

Active Member
Dec 14, 2011
488
2
Sheffield
Making a flange is a bitch too. Took me about 11 hours but im hardly a proffessional.

Yeah putting the cat towards the back would work.

The further away the cat is the less restriction there is for the turbo exhaust gas to exit. Thats why the downpipe is the most important part. By the time the gas is under the car the temperature of the gas will be less. Also the further away this cat is from the boost pipe, the better.

The only thing that will be a small downside of the cat right at the back is it will take longer to get up to operating temperature. That wont damage anything but probably wont make the emmissions standard as soon as the engine is started up. Just means mot time you will have to get the engine nice and warm before dropping your car in.

Btw, where the exhaust bends under the car at the end of the downpipe, you will have to go from 3" to 2.5" and have the flexipipe in 2.5". Thats just becuase its soooo tight under there.

I'm not trying to belittle what you're saying or anything because I'm out of my depth with exhausts and back pressures ect, but reading this made me ask an exhaust specialist about moving the cat today on my own car. He said that it probably won't work if you move it, and cars they have done it on in the past have failed mot on emissions because they don't get hot enough to work. Like I said I'm out of my depth, but guess it's something to consider?
 

lucifer666

Active Member
Dec 17, 2006
1,460
7
Cardiff
That's why I said that you would need to get it up to temperature before it would work. The supersprint cat is actually under the car. It's not as far as the centre silencer. But it is true what you were told. If the cat is not u;p to temperature it will fail Emmissions. I personally would keep it just before the cat back section to guarantee temps are sufficient but away from the boost pipe to make sure there's no heat transfer.

Having said that though I have a friend that has a 1000bhp supra that has a cat screwed onto his exhaust tailpipe come mot. That seems to pass Emmissions.

I would play safe
 
Last edited:

AL90

Active Member
Dec 14, 2011
488
2
Sheffield
where is your cat?
Would be so much easier if there was no emission test, so you could just run decat systems lol
 

lucifer666

Active Member
Dec 17, 2006
1,460
7
Cardiff
True. But on this car with the maps that are available a decat causes a delay in power delivery and pisses dsg off.
 

lucifer666

Active Member
Dec 17, 2006
1,460
7
Cardiff
I will be switching to apr. Already have the hybrid turbo waiting to go on with a apace radiator. They have worked their way around the dsg limiting power delivery. So unlike revos stage 2 map I will be able to run the decat up to its potential without any problems with overspool and dsg. The map is designed for the hybrid turbo only so no use to you.
 

Beazy

Active Member
Sep 21, 2011
261
0
A proper APR 'Stage 2' file would be nice as I want to go the full exhaust route later next year but from what Evan has said I'm not sure that's going to happen. I know they had an intercooler in development for the 1.4tsi but that was months ago it was posted and I've never seen anything since :( But never heard anything about an exhaust package...


Hopefully they decide to do a proper stage 2 file and someone kindly agrees to be their guinea pig!