DSG Auto Programme - Not Very Good

[richmarsh]

I have the 2.0 TFSI FR DSG. While I think semi-automatic mode is pretty good. I have problems with the full auto programme i.e. mode 'D'.

1. Changes up are far too early. I think this is because Seat call it an ECO Auto programme. Obviously keeping the revs low helps the fuel economy, but driving 30mph in 5th gear isn't much fun!
   
2. When slowing down it holds onto second gear for far too long. First gear isn't engaged until a complete stop. This means that slowing to a 'give way' sign often means you're bogged down, essentially in the wrong gear when you drive away. You then have to give it loads of welly to get moving.
   
3. When you find it's in too high a gear to accelerate fast enough. If you give the accelerator a good squeeze it goes into kick down mode, drops down a couple of gears and screams like a banshee!!
   
4. Now, some of these problems can be overcome by using the steering wheel paddles to override the auto gear selection. This is absolutely fine, but it is far too keen to take back control. I've dropped down to forth because that's what I want, why does it take back control and go back to fifth 30 seconds later. If I have overridden it's setting it should stick with that until the revs mean it has to change gear. It should then go back into auto mode.

Basically, the auto programme is fine if you're in the mood to whizz everywhere, but if you're driving around town it really isn't great, unless you want to drive like an eco nutter!

Is this behaviour the same as it is in the Golf and Audi A3?

Can I get my DSG software re-mapped? I don't mind the fuel hit, I just want the auto experience to be that much better.

Rich

 

[140SPORT]

I have a DSG But on the 140 sport unlike you i don't have the paddles so have to use manual mode if i want to take control,This is the first auto i have ever owned and i really like how it works.

I suppose the biggest problem is it can not read the drivers mind and so how could it know what you are planning on doing next.If it did not change up to higher gears in auto people who don't know how to drive would drive on a motorway in 3rd if they could.

 

[MarkE]

Auto mode will have been designed to allow "car users" (not drivers) to just potter around with a minimum of fuss. For this, it probably does its job quite well. If it held on to gears for longer and dropped into 1st at low speeds, the result would be too noisy, jerky and uneconomical for those people.

If you want to drive it, they give you the manual mode.

At the end of the day, DSG is trying to be the best of both worlds - the result is that people at both ends of the spectrum will find things they don't like about it.

 

[rllmuk]

I think Auto mode is great for just tootling around town - it's actually made me a less aggressive driver on those times I don't want to rag the arse off it. In my old LCR I changed gear at certain speeds, often meaning I stayed in 3rd/4th too long - the DSG auto mode is a breath of fresh air for fuel consumption. I agree it's not got for quick acceleration bursts, but if I want to do that I use the paddles anyway.

 

[Scotsguard]

If you don't want it to take control of the gears, put the gear lever over to the left so it's in 'manual' mode. It won't let you stall so it will change down if it has to though.

 

[flakmunky]

I would agree with all of your comments about the D auto programme, rich. Which is why I have stopped using it!

Have you tried Sport? If not, have a go...

Or just shove the stick to the left and use your flappy paddles. In addition to changing down to avoid stalling, it will change up just before you hit the rev limiter, however I find that this means it holds the gears fractionally too long...

 

[ghosty]

rich, if u dont mind the fuel hit then leave it in 'S' all the time and try that out. S-mode is so much fun and i would leave it there if i could afford it

D is good for laid back driving or pottering around but is not perfect like u have pointed out. i also agree with the comments u have made, but doesn not seem to bother me as much since it does what i need most of the time, and if i dont like what the auto is doing then i take charge

as far as im aware the golf and a3 use the same gearbox so i would expect the same

cheers,
g

 

[richmarsh]

Thanks for the comments guys.

I have used the 'S' programme and agree it's fun when you're in the mood for it (although going around a round-about at 5000rpm is a bit odd ).

What I really want is a bit of a half way house between 'D' and 'S'.

Be interesting to know if it's exactly the same on the Golf and A3. I don't remember them referring to it as ECO programme though.

 

[Hugo Nebula]

If you don't want it to take control of the gears, put the gear lever over to the left so it's in 'manual' mode. It won't let you stall so it will change down if it has to though.

One of the things I have against the manual lever (as opposed to the paddles) is that it is counter-intuitive. I would expect to engage a higher gear by moving the lever down, as one would going from first to second or from third to fourth[1]. Several times when using this mode I've gone down a gear when I meant to go up!

One can't always use the paddles through a corner unless you're pretending you're Jason Plato keeping a 'racing' grip on the wheel.

[1] Yes, I know moving from second to third involves moving a manual gearlever upwards, but there is a slight dwell in neutral as one moves it across to another gate.

 

[flakmunky]

+ = Up = Up a gear
- = Down = Down a gear

Hugo, what you are proposing is:

+ = Down = Up a gear
- = Up = Down a gear

I would say that your sugesstion is counter-intuitive!

 

[MatthewB]

Flak - Although the gearstick is labelled + and - I think Hugo's taking about the movement.

I also think that the stick is the "wrong way round" Look at motorsport - pushing the gearstick forwards downshifts not upshift as it does with the DSG (wonder if I could rewire that?).

 

[PhilYerBoots]

What I really want is a bit of a half way house between 'D' and 'S'.

Also agree generally with your observations Rich, particularly that the 'S' mode could do with a revision on the rev limits for upshifts. Making upshifts earlier at around 3-4k will still give reasonable economy but also use the rev range better for a bit of sporty-auto driving. If you want to leave upshifts later and use the full rev range, that's what manual mode is for isn't it..?

 

[flakmunky]

Apols to the OP, as this is a little OT, but it is relevant. Kind of!

@ Matt and Hugo - You have raised an interesting issue here... Are either of you gamers? I am!

I used to work in the computer games industry and this is an issue that, if not addressed in a game, can affect sales. It is to do with how people visualise the game pad (or even the cursor keys there near your right pinky) and specifically what plane you visualise it to be in relation the screen...

On your keyboard when you press the cursor key pointing away or move the mouse away from you the cursor moves up. So that key is called 'Up'. Likewise, with a 2d game like Pacman, if you moved the joystick away from you, Pacman went up. We are subconciously rotating the plane of the keyboard / mouse / joystick 90 degrees to the vertical.

However, in a 3d environment not everyone does this. If you imagine the joystick or mouse controls the movements of your head and you don't rotate the plane 90 degrees, i.e. it remains horizontal, then moving the joystick / mouse forwards would move your head down, likewise moving it backwards would move your head up in the same way that moving the yoke in an aircraft away from you makes the aircraft descend, moving it backwards makes it ascend... It may be that designers in motorsport used the aircraft 'model'.

And that is the problem, some of us rotate the plane of the controls and some don't.

In games it is known as inverting the y-axis and by default we always set it so that pressing the button pointing away from you (I am avoiding calling it 'Up') moves your view up as this is (believe it or not) the setting that the majority of people prefer.

Confusingly, in a modern First Person Shooter, you generally have one thumbstick controlling the 'look at' and the other controlling the movement. Without inverting the y-axis, the player is visualising the controller in two different ways at the same time! On the 'look-at' stick they are rotating it to the vertical, on the 'movement' stick they are keeping it horizontal...

If you have ever played Halo or Halo 2 (I haven't got an Xbox360 so don't know about Halo 3) then in the opening tutorials the game flips the Y-axis and asks you whether you prefer it that way.

Hugo's assertion that it is more intuitive because you move the gear lever towards you to change from 1st to 2nd, 3rd to 4th and 5th to 6th I don't think is the way the designers were thinking... Nor were they thinking about aircraft.

I think they were thinking about the mouse and the keyboard... Pressing the button pointing away from you is 'Up'...

And I also bet they don't invert the Y-axis when playing Halo!

Sorry for the long winded reply!

 

[MatthewB]

Good point there Flak! I'm of the push the stick forward to look down persuation on the PS3, although when playing on a PC with a mouse I play "normally"

I always thought the stick thing was a throwback to years of playing flight sims! It's a good explanation as to why I think the DSG manual is "wrong"

 

[Fl@pper]

doesnt explain the latest change of fire buttons - foryears spent pressing X - or L click to shoot now its R1 - grrrrr and yes i know its to replicate trigger action etc but so damn annoying reloading by accident

ff to reprogram it an yet another game: :0

as for the DSG - i havent driven it which way does it work in manual stick shift

i'd assume back to go up through gears and forward to change down ?

if not i'd rip it out and turn it round

 

[Hugo Nebula]

as for the DSG - i havent driven it which way does it work in manual stick shift

i'd assume back to go up through gears and forward to change down ?

No; forward (away from you) is '+' and changes up, towards you is '-' and changes down.

I'm not a gamer (I was rubbish at Space Invaders and I've just never got into games since), so I must admit most of flakmunky's reply went above my head.

I think the difference between a cursor or forward/back control and a manual gearstick is that the gearstick isn't directly controlling motion the way a steering wheel or aeroplane joystick does, so it's behaviour that has to be learned, and once learned, it's hard to counter.

On the drawing board, it may seem logical that, rotated through 90°, forward = higher, but when set against the years of learning to move the lever towards you to engage a higher gear, it's something that, until it comes naturally, I can forget especially when negotiating a busy junction.

 

[flakmunky]

This is exactly why games have the option to swap it round...

I'm a child of the Playstation Generation!!!!

@Hugo - you are dead right - you have visualised the controls in a way that *should* make sense and (to you) it doesn't... And now its stuck...

Stick a Post-It Note on your left hand with an arrow pointing Up (which will be away from you when you put your hand on the stick ) and Label it "UP" in big letters!

Lol!!!



@Matt - I just bought a SplitFish FragFX (Google it) from a guy in the US for my PS3 as I can't play R:FOM with a gamepad - I'm a diehard WASD+Mouse man! It turned up last week and my accuracy went right up immediately... Once I've finished it I'll go online and start owning people! lol

 

[CrispDust]

biggest problems with DSG?
1. the lag when you are on a trailing throttle ie giving way at a slip road onto motorway. Good 1/2 second delay before any action.
2. "slipping" if the hand brake is on. I'm not sure why the DSG does this and I'm sure it can't be good for wear on clutch. Try it on an up hill - Footbrake, then handbrake, release footbrake, rear will tramp down as clutch bites again then ease off to "slip" mode. Presumably its to help on hill starts?
With a mapped 140TDi the ratios etc are not so important - I've 250lbft and 150 hp at 2krpm

 

[flakmunky]

Err... Take the handbrake off first, then off the footbrake!

 

[Gary@Cookies]

Err... Take the handbrake off first, then off the footbrake!

That doesn't really work in a VAG TDi setup as the throttle is "fly by wire", the problem is that when you have your foot on the brake it cuts the throttle (in the same way as it does when you want to heel/toe in the manual Tdi's ) and dis-engages the slip mode so if you want a quick getaway out of a junction there is a lag whilst the throttle and therefore the gearbox is re-engaged which although is only a fraction of a second it can seem like a bloody lifetime when a forty tonner is bearing down on you, holding it on the handbrake keeps it engaged in first gear and keeps the throttle live.

As for someone's earlier comment about changing gear on a bend being difficult; why the hell would you want to? Fast cornering is all about keeping the car on as flat a plane as possible and changing gear mid corner upsets the balance of the car.

As for up to go up etc, why question SEAT when BMW Mercedes Benz et al all use the same configuration?