ESP light stuck on, advice please?

[oakles]

Hey guys

I'm after a bit of help. I've got a MK1 Seat Leon 1.9TDI 110, went to start it a few days ago, turned on the ignition and the ESP light is stuck on. When it comes on i am completely unable to start the car and it just chugs over like the immobiliser is stopping it from starting? Was just wondering if anyone has had this problem before/knows what it could possibly be?

Have had the AA out and had it into a local garage today, AA mechanic believed the brake light switch needed changing but this has still not solved the problem. When using a diagnostic kit and the fault code is cleared the car starts perfectly fine, the fault code however rears its ugly head again after a few minutes...

Really stuck with this so any suggestions would be a bonus

 

[Muttley]

What is the fault code?

The immobiliser will let the car start but then immediately cuts it out, so it doesn't sound like an immobiliser issue.

I've not seen this problem before, but maybe someone else has?

Lack of ESP is not a dangerous issue, and the car should run if that is all that is the problem. I'm not so sure about ABS - is it the ABS light or the ESP light? My old Toledo TDI 110 didn't have ESP so maybe it's the ABS light, which is more likely to be a problem.

Can you tell us which light is on in the display (use this diagram for reference)

 

[oakles]

Hey, cheers for replying

I can't remember the exact fault code but i've asked the mechanic and he reckons he can let me know in the morning so i'll post it up when i find out

That's what i've found out from searching through many different forums etc, that the car should be safe to drive and to be honest if i can get it starting it drives no differently. It's bizarre. The whole car shakes really violently when trying to start it with this light on as well.

I've just been to Wales with the misses and we did drive the car on the beach a few times while we were there, not sure whether that could have anything to do with it as it hadn't happened previous to this?

The light in reference to that diagram is number 26

 

[Muttley]

Ok, 26 is the ESP/TCS light, and as far as I know what you have is TCS, traction control system, rather than ESP. But it's still true that it is not a dangerous failure, so the car should not be blocked from starting.

I don't think that any sand off the beach is going to cause this kind of problem. TDI's usually have a full undertray beneath the engine in any case, part of the noise reduction, unless yours has been removed or fallen off at some stage.

 

[oakles]

I don't think that any sand off the beach is going to cause this kind of problem. TDI's usually have a full undertray beneath the engine in any case, part of the noise reduction, unless yours has been removed or fallen off at some stage.

More than likely a problem with the traction control then?

Funny you should say that, the undertray was removed a few months ago as it was starting to drag along the floor. Never bothered sticking it back on as i didn't see any real point as a lot of cars don't even have them.

 

[Muttley]

The undertray has a couple of positive benefits. It improves the aerodynamics, smoothing the underside, and promotes good airflow through the coolant radiator/aircon condenser/intercooler heat exchangers. It also keeps the underside of the engine clean and stops water from wet roads getting in to the engine bay.

I don't know what's wrong at this stage. The fault code will tell us a lot more.

 

[oakles]

Hi, I've just been and found the fault code. It is 423B brake light switch signal improbable.... Does that give you any clues? How could this be stopping the car from starting?

I'm back at work on Monday and now panicking about getting it fixed before then.

 

[Muttley]

423B is the fault code number in hexadecimal, and translates to 16955 in decimal, which is just what you were told - see the entry here in the Ross-Tech list.

That code on its own is not an indication of whatever is preventing the car from firing up.

I suspect that there are more fault codes stored, and that the mechanic has just read the first one. You could ask him to check for more, of if you could find someone with VCDS close to you they could have a look.

Can you see if fuel is being delivered to the pump, through the clear pipe that you can see on the offside of the engine bay after taking the engine cover off? Have you tried taking one of the injector unions off to make sure that fuel is being delivered to the injectors? (use plenty of paper towel or similar to catch the fuel, and don't put your finger over the end of the pipe)

 

[oakles]

So you mean there would be another fault code within the code? Sorry i'm new to all of this.

I've just downloaded VCDS and ordered a USB wire for it so hopefully plug it in and see what i can find when it arrives.

The car does start after perhaps 7/8 times of ignition on, try and start + repeat. Once it's started once it will then start perfectly fine without any problems until left to get cold again.

I've just been and started it whilst looking at the clear fuel pipe on the side of the engine, this doesn't seem to get any fuel until 15/20 seconds after the car has started. Is this normal? It seems to run round the system fine once the car has started.

Where would my injectors be located on the engine?

I really appreciate all this help - it's way more than was expected

 

[Muttley]

I got a lot of help from this forum when I had my first Seat, a TDI Ibiza, more years ago than I care to remember, so I try to pay it foreward

What I mean about the fault codes is that there may be more than one stored in the log, and the mechanic may have read the first one and assumed that was the only problem. Of course I may be maligning him dreadfully, and if so I apologise to him - er - remotely

VCDS will let you read all the fault codes - it does allow you to export the list but only to the clipboard, you will have to open Notepad or whatever you use instead (let's face it, Notepad is, well, limited: I use Textpad), paste the exported list in and save it as a text file.

I am also trying to think of faults that may not throw an error code, which is why I asked about the fuel lines. From what you've just said it looks like there is a large air bubble in the fuel feed. Normally those work themselves out after a while. However, do you know when the fuel filter was last changed? A clogged filter would resist fuel flow from a cold start (the fuel having crept back into the tank). The service interval for fuel filters on the 1.9 TDI engines is 40,000 miles.

Injectors... Well, they are the components that handle fuel injection into the cylinder head so you can guess they are in a similar place to spark plugs on a petrol engine. I've got a pic of an ASV engine with the cover off somewhere... let me look... Ah, here we are



Handily labelled too Not my pic, I found it on the web some time ago.

So this might be a fuel flow issue, something that is not tracked by the sensors on the engine, so would not throw an error code - just coincidence.

You will find VCDS very useful, or at least I did. One of the first things I did was to turn the EGR down to its lowest setting. In these engines, the EGR system drops hot sooty exhaust gas upstream of the inlet manifold where it mixes with the inlet charge, which contains oil from the PCV system. This results in a buildup of sludgy carbonised goo which eventually stops the EGR from working properly and causes overboost (because the EGR can't close when it should do) as well as choking the inlet and making your fuel economy worse. If you are up for it, taking the EGR valve off and looking at the pipe upstream of it will be instructive, and may make you want to take the whole lot off and clean it out

 

[cupraslayer]

I got a lot of help from this forum when I had my first Seat, a TDI Ibiza, more years ago than I care to remember, so I try to pay it foreward

What I mean about the fault codes is that there may be more than one stored in the log, and the mechanic may have read the first one and assumed that was the only problem. Of course I may be maligning him dreadfully, and if so I apologise to him - er - remotely

VCDS will let you read all the fault codes - it does allow you to export the list but only to the clipboard, you will have to open Notepad or whatever you use instead (let's face it, Notepad is, well, limited: I use Textpad), paste the exported list in and save it as a text file.

I am also trying to think of faults that may not throw an error code, which is why I asked about the fuel lines. From what you've just said it looks like there is a large air bubble in the fuel feed. Normally those work themselves out after a while. However, do you know when the fuel filter was last changed? A clogged filter would resist fuel flow from a cold start (the fuel having crept back into the tank). The service interval for fuel filters on the 1.9 TDI engines is 40,000 miles.

Injectors... Well, they are the components that handle fuel injection into the cylinder head so you can guess they are in a similar place to spark plugs on a petrol engine. I've got a pic of an ASV engine with the cover off somewhere... let me look... Ah, here we are



Handily labelled too Not my pic, I found it on the web some time ago.

So this might be a fuel flow issue, something that is not tracked by the sensors on the engine, so would not throw an error code - just coincidence.

You will find VCDS very useful, or at least I did. One of the first things I did was to turn the EGR down to its lowest setting. In these engines, the EGR system drops hot sooty exhaust gas upstream of the inlet manifold where it mixes with the inlet charge, which contains oil from the PCV system. This results in a buildup of sludgy carbonised goo which eventually stops the EGR from working properly and causes overboost (because the EGR can't close when it should do) as well as choking the inlet and making your fuel economy worse. If you are up for it, taking the EGR valve off and looking at the pipe upstream of it will be instructive, and may make you want to take the whole lot off and clean it out

Someone's been doing his homework !!! Handy chap to know !!

 

[oakles]

Right, so i've just been out to the car playing for a few hours...

I don't believe hes particularly great at the diagnostic side, he's cracking at fixing stuff when you find out what it is though! (I try and fix the majority of things myself, however..)
I did look at the diagnostic machine whilst he was doing it, and that was the only code that came up... the thing that's confusing me (if it was to do with the fueling system) is why, when the fault code is cleared off does the car start straight away? it's bizarre.

I've been having a look around to try and explain what the engine sounds like when trying to start and luckily came across this on the AA website:

www
.theaa.
com/motoring_advice/audio/flooded.mp3

That sounds almost exactly how mine does (even though the clip is of a petrol engine)

The fuel filter was changed about 8K miles ago, had a full service done on it including cam belt.

I tried to get the injectors out (one of my friends suggested swapping them around) but they seem quite rusty and i couldn't get them out.

That's a fantastic picture & i have saved it. Fabulous thank you!
I have noticed over boost before so perhaps that could be whats causing it. In fact my turbo just cuts out sometimes and i have to restart to get the turbo working again. I'll definitely try it out once the lead arrives on Monday.

 

[Muttley]

Not the fuel filter then...

As you say, it is bizarre. However, by clearing the fault code, my guess would be that *all* fault codes would be cleared, so if there is one that's not been looked at yet, it too would be cleared by the reset. Not too helpful, I'm afraid

The turbo cutting out is what's called limp mode, a fallback employed by the ECU when it detects a fault condition that can be allayed by cutting performance, so the car is still driveable and you are not left with a dead engine in the fast lane The ECU falls back to a conservative map, which reduces boost and power but lets you keep going. This is reset when you switch the ignition off and on again (Big Red Switch mode for car ECU's) which can mask the issue.

To test fuel delivery you don't have to get the injector out, just undo the top nut which secures the delivery pipe to the injector. Cranking the engine will then show you if fuel is being delivered to the injectors from the first crank or not. The injectors on these cars are purely mechanical in function, responding to injection pressure from the pump (the big thing driven by the cambelt). The ECU controls injection quantity and start point by means of actuators in the pump itself.

I think that stuck turbo vanes would not affect starting performance, since the turbo is not effective at idling speeds. The ECU should increase injection quantity to get the engine to fire from a cold starting point.