Judding in first when stopping

[selfagg]

Hi guys, looking for some ideas on this one.

My Leon 150 TDI has started judding when stopping in first gear. It doesn't do it in second or if I stop in neutral, so I guess it may be the clutch. The car and clutch are all standard. The clutch and flywheel were changed at 80k 3 years ago and the car is now on 113k.

Thanks in advance guys.

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[selfagg]

Ok, so a month later here is where I am, and where I really need some help...

The car has been in at the garage repeatedly to try and fix the problem, it's had a new clutch kit (flywheel, slave cylinder, etc), a new inline damper and master cylinder, the issue has only got worse, now in first gear it will start moving forward and get stuck in gear when the clutch is depressed. It has also done this in reverse. The clutch pedal is also not smooth in operation and when bringing my foot up it will judder and seems to be a delay in it coming back up.

The garage have also tried to fit a washer behind the release bearing to try and separate it from the clutch but all this has done is made the car make a hell of a racket.

I'm at my wits end and the garage are now saying that it's not going to be the gearbox as it's fine when the engine is off, but it could be the crankshaft. The engine runs absolutely fine, so I don't think that could be the problem.

Do any of you fine people have any suggestions as to what it could be?

Thanks

 

[wildrides]

Sounds like gearbox thrust bearing gone to me . Is the clutch the exact correct clutch? and are the clutch disc and pressure plate from the same manufacturer as fly wheel ie are the three parts certified as matching parts . You cant swap and interchange them often . The manufacturers have slightly differing thickness of friction plate sometimes, so that you have to buy all from one maker to get a correct biteing point on the clutch.
By crank they could mean the crank thrust bearings . When they are worn the crank moves sideways in the block when subject to clutch pedal pressure . It can get so far over that the crank web rubs on the inside of the block . Symptoms are :- at tickover in neutral put foot on clutch to floor . If engine revs slows down a lot or engine stalls then the crank thrust bearings are shagged . Doubt if it is this on a diesel ........ normally do 4-500,000 miles before that happens.

 

[wildrides]

Anyways I would change garage .............. they sound poor . Find another garage with a qualified motor engineer on the staff .......... ie qualified to write an engineers report ............ your insurance company will tell you of garages near you who can do so . Get them to sort car out and if wrong diagnosis , wrong parts or work quality are to blame then get them to write you an engineers report . Cost of that is not material as you will get that back in court costs . Next go to your county court and get a small claims court application form . It costs £25 . You do it yourself ........ dont need any solicitors . On the form claim for all your losses up to £5000 limit . ie
Lost wages for time off work
Cost of parts and labour for work that did not fix the fault
cost of engineers report
any other case costs

Submit the form and have your day in court ....... you must have an engineers report to win ..... your word against theirs wont wash with the Judge.

I sued Ford when my metal sump rusted through on a ford focus after only 3 years old and it leaked all the sump oil out on my drive ! Ford defended the case saying foot and mouth disinfectant caused it ( can you believe that ! ) I won .......... judge said new cars should last 5 years without any fault to non wearing parts, as per " fit for purpose consumer laws" I got costs back and compensation in my favour . Ford got a good kicking for being a prat .

 

[selfagg]

Hi, thanks for your replies.

The garage is a supposed "specialist" local to me, they've got a good reputation so I'm not sure if that is the problem.

Since fitting the washer the issue still exists, but it's not as bad. I spoke to the garage today and they're going to fit another clutch and master cylinder Monday to make sure the existing ones aren't at fault. The Clutch, Release-bearing/concentric slave cylinder and flywheel were all replaced with LUK parts (which is what they recommended). On the phone the head mechanic said that it may be end float movement in the crankshaft. If that is the case, how would I test that?

While the engine was running I repeatedly put my foot to the floor in neutral and lifted it back at different speeds, the revs didn't seem to move, although the engine note did. The clutch still felt odd in operation, about halfway up you can feel a noticeable drag on it and the pedal doesn't return at the same speed as my foot.

My brother is coming over in the morning with a pressure bleeder and we are going to take a proper look at it. Is there anything you suggest we check (considering he knows a lot more about engines than I do), or any ideas what else it could be?

Thanks again

 

[wildrides]

may be the garage has been supplied with the wrong clutch parts ( for another VW ) . The system can be hard to bleed so you are doing the right thing eliminating that .
The excess crank endfloat is caused by crank thrust bearing wear as described in my previous post . You have tested for that already . There is another test method but it requires a bit of dismantling :-

Jack car up at front
Take drivers wheel off
remove lower plastic cover that bolts to bottom of inner wing so that you can see the crank end pully that the drive AUX belt is on . IF there is excess float you will be able to pull or push on the pully and the crank will move in and out depending on amount of wear . You can measure this movement with a feeler guage and check it against spec in the haynes manual . try measuring it with the clutch fully depressed and also with clutch pedal up . The garage can check this easily also when they have the gearbox off by measuring the flywheel movement when pushing on it and then prising it back out again with a screwdriver driver between the flywheel and engine block (gently )

If the garage does say it is crank end float then I would ask them to actually show you it moving whilst on the ramp at the garage . It is VERY rare these days to see this fault as modern oils are so good therefore I would want to see the actual proof myself if it was me in your position. If an engine is run low on oil or deteriorated oil or the oil pump has gone then the mains and big ends go well before the thrust bearings wear out . What wears crank thrust bearings is starting an engine from cold with your foot already down on the clutch pedal before the engine has started and oil pressure has been obtained . Some car makes wont allow you to start the car without the clutch pedal being depressed these days ( toyota ) and these cars will suffer end float wear before other makes if the oil is not changed very regularly.
Good luck !

 

[selfagg]

We've had the car up today, there is no play in the crankshaft at all.

There appears to be a very slight leak on the bleed nipple on the slave cylinder. Talking really slight, but could that be enough to cause this intermittent issue?

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[wildrides]

I would not have thought so . however, air in the system might account for a slow return of the pedal .

I would think most likely the clutch pressure plate is faulty or was damaged on instalation or the wrong clutch has been supplied and fitted in error . There is absolutely no way you should have to fit an extra washer on the gearbox input shaft behind the thrust bearing or infront of it if the clutch is the correct one for the vehicle. So something is not right with the new clutch and / or flywheel quality or dimensions or the slave cylinder / master cylinder .

 

[selfagg]

I'm thinking they've cut corners and fitted some cheap parts to be honest, the slave cylinder looked to be made of really cheap plastic and the entire housing that the bleed nipple is on is loose. The pipe for the inline damper which they also replaced is also sat below the clip it's meant to be in.

I think the people who recommended this garage must have just been damn lucky!