Trouble starting FR TDI - Starter motor or engine...?

iammooks

Active Member
Nov 27, 2018
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My car was sat on my parents' driveway for the past week what with Christmas, the New Year etc. and I hadn't moved it. It's been cold and wet pretty much the whole time it was parked up. I packed it up last night to head back home, went to turn it over and nothing happened. All the usual lights came on, but it just wouldn't turn over. It wouldn't even try. Tried a few variations of ignition on, off, key out, getting out of the car, locking and unlocking etc. just to see if any of those things fixed it, but nothing.

I've mentioned on 'what have you done to your car...' several months back that I'd had some issues with starting the car, and thought it was the starter motor, but after a couple of goes, the car would start. This time, nothing was happening at all. Battery is good, replaced that at the start of the year, and no other real issues to speak of, outside of the usual 165k kinds of stuff.

What got it started in the end was that I put it in first gear and tried to push it to see if that loosened or cracked anything off that was holding things up. It didn't move, even on the flat. I put it in neutral and it moved fine, so decided to push it, jump in the driver's seat, put it in first gear and then drop the clutch. It stopped dead when I did it, but after that, I was able to turn the engine over. It laboured a bit, but it worked and got me home. When I dropped some things off at my girlfriend's place after driving it for two hours, it started again without any issues.

Ordinarily, I'd think it needs a new starter, but given the starter isn't always in contact with the flywheel (I think?), I shouldn't have had to do the whole thing putting it into first gear etc. and essentially bump starting it, so I'm wondering if the engine is actually seizing. Even when it starts normally, there's often smoke and smells from the exhaust and I sometimes have to give the engine a good rev, otherwise it feels like it's not got as much power at higher revs.

It's a diesel, and I have had the usual issues with the EGR etc. being dirty (but not clogged) and I've been talking about cleaning the intake manifold for years now. I haven't used any fuel additives for a while now and am starting to wonder if that's causing any issues too.

Long and the short of it is that while I love this car and have put so much work into it over the years, I'm getting a bit fed up with it now and I'm not wanting to put more money into it unless I know what I do is going to fix the problem. It's also the time of year when I service the car, so if it involves using a different oil or a different grade that'll adhere to the cylinders better, I can do that too. Or it could just be the starter...
 
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BadBoy03

A Mk1 Is For Life, Not Just For Fun
Sep 6, 2016
698
470
Somerset
Sorry to hear your problem, so frustrating!
I'm not familiar with diesels unfortunately, but I had something similar with my car last week.
Like you it was sat idle for about 2 weeks & when I went to start, had all ignition lights on but no response with turn of the key. It set the alarm off at the same time, despite key in ignition, so I removed it, got out of car locked, unlocked then put key back in & it finally stopped the alarm.
I am assuming battery, even though it's 6 months old, but I think it may also be a case of damp connections somewhere. I have to admit I abandoned it on my drive & got in my other car.
I am picking up a battery charger this avo to give it a boost, then I will see what happens.
Maybe check the battery charge, mine is low.
Hope someone else can shed some technical light on your issue. Best of luck.
 

Dazzalcr

Active Member
Aug 10, 2019
313
294
Lancashire
Ok, matt Armstrong has just done a video on YouTube and basically bought a flood damaged rolls royce Cullen and everything worked pretty much, it started but took many turns, it was the starter motor even though he thought it would not be due to it eventually starting, either the motor or solenoid was playing up turning very slow instead of being rapid. Maybe worth a watch
 

Battoussai

Active Member
Mar 22, 2016
486
148
Portugal
My car was sat on my parents' driveway for the past week what with Christmas, the New Year etc. and I hadn't moved it. It's been cold and wet pretty much the whole time it was parked up. I packed it up last night to head back home, went to turn it over and nothing happened. All the usual lights came on, but it just wouldn't turn over. It wouldn't even try. Tried a few variations of ignition on, off, key out, getting out of the car, locking and unlocking etc. just to see if any of those things fixed it, but nothing.

I've mentioned on 'what have you done to your car...' several months back that I'd had some issues with starting the car, and thought it was the starter motor, but after a couple of goes, the car would start. This time, nothing was happening at all. Battery is good, replaced that at the start of the year, and no other real issues to speak of, outside of the usual 165k kinds of stuff.

What got it started in the end was that I put it in first gear and tried to push it to see if that loosened or cracked anything off that was holding things up. It didn't move, even on the flat. I put it in neutral and it moved fine, so decided to push it, jump in the driver's seat, put it in first gear and then drop the clutch. It stopped dead when I did it, but after that, I was able to turn the engine over. It laboured a bit, but it worked and got me home. When I dropped some things off at my girlfriend's place after driving it for two hours, it started again without any issues.

Ordinarily, I'd think it needs a new starter, but given the starter isn't always in contact with the flywheel (I think?), I shouldn't have had to do the whole thing putting it into first gear etc. and essentially bump starting it, so I'm wondering if the engine is actually seizing. Even when it starts normally, there's often smoke and smells from the exhaust and I sometimes have to give the engine a good rev, otherwise it feels like it's not got as much power at higher revs.

It's a diesel, and I have had the usual issues with the EGR etc. being dirty (but not clogged) and I've been talking about cleaning the intake manifold for years now. I haven't used any fuel additives for a while now and am starting to wonder if that's causing any issues too.

Long and the short of it is that while I love this car and have put so much work into it over the years, I'm getting a bit fed up with it now and I'm not wanting to put more money into it unless I know what I do is going to fix the problem. It's also the time of year when I service the car, so if it involves using a different oil or a different grade that'll adhere to the cylinders better, I can do that too. Or it could just be the starter...
Hi there. Diesel AHF 110hp here. Mine has done that to myself a year ago. I gave battery a good home charge and even tried the booster but it didn't start. Not even with a downhill push. Took it to my long time VAG reliable mech and he took off the starter motor. Dismantled the whole ting apart and re-solder the wires on the solenoid. Checked the starter with multimeter and voilá! Back on the car and it stills runs fine nowadays. Cost: 25€. He told me that other mechs don't bother to repair the starter and just ask for a expensive replacement. My most budget friendly advice is to try to find a place where they fix starters.

Best regards and good luck.
 
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BadBoy03

A Mk1 Is For Life, Not Just For Fun
Sep 6, 2016
698
470
Somerset
Ok, matt Armstrong has just done a video on YouTube and basically bought a flood damaged rolls royce Cullen and everything worked pretty much, it started but took many turns, it was the starter motor even though he thought it would not be due to it eventually starting, either the motor or solenoid was playing up turning very slow instead of being rapid. Maybe worth a watch
That's an interesting thought, will definitely check that out. Cheers.
P.s New year...new problem 🤣
 

BadBoy03

A Mk1 Is For Life, Not Just For Fun
Sep 6, 2016
698
470
Somerset
Hi there. Diesel AHF 110hp here. Mine has done that to myself a year ago. I gave battery a good home charge and even tried the booster but it didn't start. Not even with a downhill push. Took it to my long time VAG reliable mech and he took off the starter motor. Dismantled the whole ting apart and re-solder the wires on the solenoid. Checked the starter with multimeter and voilá! Back on the car and it stills runs fine nowadays. Cost: 25€. He told me that other mechs don't bother to repair the starter and just ask for a expensive replacement. My most budget friendly advice is to try to find a place where they fix starters.

Best regards and good luck.
That's very good to hear 👍
 

iammooks

Active Member
Nov 27, 2018
1,797
1,191
This is all pretty reassuring, to be honest - with the weather being as cold as it is, I was worried the engine might be seizing from condensation. If that froze and I tried to start it, that could lead to some sadness.

When I turn the key on before turning over the engine, I used to hear a kind of electrical hum that I'm not hearing anymore, so it could be something to do with the starter.

Whatever happens, a starter or even trying to fix the old one, is way cheaper than doing anything to the engine. It does need some care too, but I can work on that after getting the car through its MoT this month.

If I can recondition the starter, I'll post a bit of a how-to here - I prefer fixing to replacing anyway, and if it helps anyone else, so much the better...


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mty12345

Active Member
Jun 17, 2011
3,988
599
bristol
Hey mate, only just reading this now. Bit of a weird one like you said. Can understand the starter being faulty, but the thing about the bump start doesn't add up in that case.

The fact that it happened after being sat for so long, makes me wonder if you have a leaking injector, and that is slowy dripping diesel into the cylinder and may have hydro locked the engine with diesel? Maybe when you bumped it the diesel either got forced out of one of the valves, or forced past the piston rings into the sump? Like i said i'm far from certain, but it's something i would consider as i've seen it before.



Not sure how easy it is to pull the glow plugs out, no experience with the diesels, but if it happens again after checking the starter, i'd suggest cranking it with the glow plugs removed and see if diesel shoots out one cylinder. Other option would be to remove the injectors themselves.
 
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iammooks

Active Member
Nov 27, 2018
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Hey mate, only just reading this now. Bit of a weird one like you said. Can understand the starter being faulty, but the thing about the bump start doesn't add up in that case.

The fact that it happened after being sat for so long, makes me wonder if you have a leaking injector, and that is slowy dripping diesel into the cylinder and may have hydro locked the engine with diesel? Maybe when you bumped it the diesel either got forced out of one of the valves, or forced past the piston rings into the sump? Like i said i'm far from certain, but it's something i would consider as i've seen it before.



Not sure how easy it is to pull the glow plugs out, no experience with the diesels, but if it happens again after checking the starter, i'd suggest cranking it with the glow plugs removed and see if diesel shoots out one cylinder. Other option would be to remove the injectors themselves.

It's one of those annoying problems where it could be all kinds of things - but I've driven the car a bit more this past week and I think I can eliminate a few things.

On Monday, the car turned over first time. It was a bit hesitant but it's cold and the car's just turning twenty, so that's OK. Took it for a drive to Worthing for a meeting and it was fine throughout. It also started fine when I drove back home after. Stopped at the supermarket on the way and when I went to leave, nothing.

I don't see many ways the engine could have seized in the twenty minutes I was in Asda, so I've ordered a new starter. I might still strip the old one (if the change solves the problem that is) and see if I can work out what the issue is and maybe even fix it. I've watched some YouTube videos and it looks like I'd have to be meticulous in terms of putting it back together again. Any job that involves springs too, and I think there are springs in the motor, just give me anxiety.

Weird how the bumping seemed to do something again though. I let the car roll forward a little, put it in gear and then lifted the clutch. Then it started.

Why do I always get the difficult jobs?

£100 on a Febi starter from Opie Oils. I've never had issues with Febi stuff, apart from maybe my coolant temp sensor never gets up to temperature. I love Bosch but they're £30 more. Now I just have to go and stand in the cold and fit it, and hope that none of the bolts snap and my battery tray repair survives - if I can remember how I repaired it in the first place.

My engine is dirty as well. Been meaning to do something about it for years. Just can't get in the right headspace to do it. It's either going to be straightforward or I'm going to be crying when a bolt snaps off in the block or the head rounds.

These cars, man. These cars.


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Battoussai

Active Member
Mar 22, 2016
486
148
Portugal
Be brave. All is gonna work out really good. Just be pacient and take your time. I like Febi but honestly I always get Bosch. ;)

I also have that "dream" of cleanning the engine but it freaks me out spraying water all over the place with so many eletric connections. Creeps...

Let us know how it went.
 

Tell

Full Member
Staff member
Moderator
For what it's worth I did have a similar issue with my old Altea 2004 model, TDI. It was quite dead. Nothing happened on turning on the ignition. Lights worked. No turnover. Used an alternative car for the trip. Tried the next day and it started. Altea are reported to have complex and weird electrical boxes... well that's what the dealer said at the time. Think it was dampness. Had another event when the lights came on with ignition but light switch turned to off. That fixed itself after a day or so. The first problem I checked fuses and that's when I learnt it wasn't a good idea to pull fuses at random, triggered the airbag light. Seems similar. Put it down to dampness in said electrical troublesome box.

Did have the Uno starter motor go once. Completely dead. This was different.
 

Alexis27

Active Member
Dec 20, 2009
2,154
487
Manchester
Sounds like the starter. Happened to the wife's Mini a few weeks ago (kept on turning over the engine even with the key removed, had to disconnect the battery). After that it was just dead.
But you can also whack a starter with a hammer and it'll work again for a bit, but then fail again randomly.
Water dripping onto it somehow killed the one in the Mini.
 

iammooks

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Nov 27, 2018
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It's not a pig of a job, but I probably spent too much time trying to get sockets on the bolts rather than just using a spanner, which was easier in the end.

My new starter has 10 teeth rather than the 11 on this starter. I've read it can still work, but that's too much of a faff.

The interesting thing I've found though is that the pinion turns easily and I can also get it to move out easily too. The symptoms I'm getting point to it being the solenoid, given it's intermittent.

Just trying to decide whether I should try and source a replacement solenoid or just order a whole new starter once I've sent the other one back.

Does anyone know how I can find out what solenoid it uses? I can't see any numbers on the solenoid itself, but I'm guessing the part number for the starter itself might yield something useful. Just being lazy really...


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iammooks

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Nov 27, 2018
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Shiny starter motor is in its new home. Started first time and nothing happened that would have been a cause for concern. Well, it's not on fire...

Turns out that 10 tooth starters are interchangeable with 11 tooth ones too, so... hurrah, I suppose...


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Nam-uk

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May 11, 2011
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Shiny starter motor is in its new home. Started first time and nothing happened that would have been a cause for concern. Well, it's not on fire...

Turns out that 10 tooth starters are interchangeable with 11 tooth ones too, so... hurrah, I suppose...


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I've had a look its hard to find a 11 tooth starter only one i found was bosch , was the febi 102906 the one you fit?
 
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iammooks

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Nov 27, 2018
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I've had a look its hard to find a 11 tooth starter only one i found was bosch , was the febi 102906 the one you fit?

That's the one, yes. The only difference was that the pinion gear is a little longer, but if the car starts, it starts!

I would have gone with the Bosch if it wasn't so expensive. Some of the prices that came up were really taking the...


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Nam-uk

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May 11, 2011
1,200
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lancashire.
That's the one, yes. The only difference was that the pinion gear is a little longer, but if the car starts, it starts!

I would have gone with the Bosch if it wasn't so expensive. Some of the prices that came up were really taking the...


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Only reason I can think it’s 11 tooth it’s easier on the starter but it can’t be a huge issue as most are 10
 
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