Oil Drain Plugs

[Mr Pig]

Hi Chimps, long time no see? :0)

So I serviced my Leon and my daughters Toledo today. Frankly, I'm a little puzzled by a simple part. The sump plugs.

My 1.4 Leon had a short sump plug with a torx socket and a removable alloy crush washer. When I ordered genuine replacement plugs for both cars a few years ago I received two different kinds. A short plug with pointed end, no washer and a similar plug but longer with a captive steel washer on it. All the plugs have the same thread, they're all going into a steel sump pan.

So...what gives? Why the different ones as surely they are interchangeable? It's just a drain plug, they all do the same thing so does it really matter which one you use?

Asking as I need to order more and want to know how much to care about getting the right ones.

Thank you :0)

 

[Crossthreaded]

Hi Chimps, long time no see? :0)

So I serviced my Leon and my daughters Toledo today. Frankly, I'm a little puzzled by a simple part. The sump plugs.

My 1.4 Leon had a short sump plug with a torx socket and a removable alloy crush washer. When I ordered genuine replacement plugs for both cars a few years ago I received two different kinds. A short plug with pointed end, no washer and a similar plug but longer with a captive steel washer on it. All the plugs have the same thread, they're all going into a steel sump pan.

So...what gives? Why the different ones as surely they are interchangeable? It's just a drain plug, they all do the same thing so does it really matter which one you use?

Asking as I need to order more and want to know how much to care about getting the right ones.

Thank you :0)

We've had a variety of Skoda and Seat cars in the family over the years (Cordoba, Ibiza and 2 Fabias) . The steel sump engine (1999 VE 1.9tdi) had the shorter pointy ended hex headed plug. The ally sumped 1.9 PD Fabia used the longer pointy ended hex headed jobbie with the captive steel washer and my new(ish) 2016 Ibiza 1.0 3 cylinder DI petrol, also with an aluminium sump, uses the same longer hex headed one with captive steel washer - which is quite handy as I've got a spare one left from the stock I kept for the PD engined Fabia. I can't remember what the 1.6 CR diesel, which was in his Fabia Scout, used as I didn't like working on that engine and tried to avoid it as much as I could. I like that the alloy sump plugs are longer as it makes the risk of stripping the threads in the ally less likely.

I always replace crush washers and I know they recommend that that the longer plug with the, presumably "uncrushable" steel washer, is replaced complete at every removal. On the Cordoba (short plug with crush washer) I always renewed the washer but in the 20 (or thereabouts) years I owned her I think I replaced the plug once (or maybe twice?) and that was only because I was starting to worry slightly about stretched threads. In fact I think I probably wasted my money and the original plug would have gone the distance. The steel washer plugs worry me a little more so I bought a new plug with captive washer when she came out of warranty and I did her year 4 service. I forgot to buy one when I did the year 5 service and, as the plug looked good as new, I reused it. It came out cleanly and went back in all the way with "finger power" and no sign of binding so I felt very happy at the time. Then I worried about it (I'm one of this world's great worriers) for several months. Glad to report though no leaks or other problems. I'll probably buy a new one this year if for no other reason that, in the grand scheme of things, they are not exactly a great expense, but if I can't easily get one I'd be happy to reuse the old one again.

Thinking about the plug with the steel washer and the fact that it tightens against the alloy sump I think there is a slight possibility of damage to the machined face of the sump if the tightening of the plug is abused. So I very carefully clean the machined area around the hole, so no debris can be trapped between the washer and alloy of the sump and always torque it rather than "muscling" it tight - Having seen many damaged and stripped sump threads in my time I'm greatly in favour of using a torque wrench on sump plugs. It can be such a "pain" sorting a stripped drain thread, much better to just avoid!

Edit - Just reread your post. Personally I'd want to use a crush washer on a steel sump. Steel washer against steel sump may well not seal very well and I'd expect it to mark, and over time with repeated removal and re-installation, cause damage to the sealing surface of the sump?

 

[Crossthreaded]

It seems to have stopped me doing another edit to the above post so Here I am again. As to length of the plug. As a very rough yardstick, if you look into the hole when the plug is removed you'll observe that the steel sumps have a much shallower depth of threaded hole and the ally sumps are threaded in for quite a distance - twice the depth (maybe even more - the Ibiza has a threaded hole almost the depth of that longer plug!) So, as a very rough general observation I'd say, because the treads are the same, you could use either length of plug in the steel sumps but. personally, I'll be using a longer plug in an ally sump. Then there's the crush washer consideration. Again, in my opinion, I'd want a crush washer against a steel sump - which is what the steel sump'd Cordoba had (short plug with crush washer). On the other hand why not just ring your local main dealer stores and ask?

Strewth, that all evolved into a bit of a lengthy epistle didn't it? Hope some of it was of interest and helpful.

 

[Mr Pig]

Strewth, that all evolved into a bit of a lengthy epistle didn't it? Hope some of it was of interest and helpful.

Yip, makes sense. The only oddball is the short bolt with the torx head but I googled that. It looks like they fit that because they don't intend to remove it for oil changes, the suck the oil out instead.

 

[RUM4MO]

Yes, a bit of a funny old game, I remember that the steel sump on my daughter's first Ibiza, a late 2001 1.4 8V with a steel sump, had a short sump plug with a replaceable sealing washer, then my 2000 VW Passat 2.8 V6 had an alloy sump with a long bolt with a captive washer, then wife's 2002 VW Polo 1.4 16V had an alloy sump and a long sump plug with a captive washer, as did my daughter's late 2009 Ibiza 1.4 16V. Then I bought a 2011 Audi S4 with a steel base on the sump, and it had a short sump plug with a female hex on it and used alloy crush washers, also my wife's 2015 VW Polo 1.2TSI 16V with a steel base on the sump uses a short sump plug with a male hex on it and uses the same alloy crush washers - and that is quite handy, but more expensive than the old plug/washer combo. Daughter's 2019 Leon Cupra has one of these plastic sump plugs, by maybe that will be her partner's problem and not mine!

Finally, crushable alloy washers, has anyone ever spotted them being sold in "10s" and at a sensible price, so far I've failed to find any, Febi are even more expensive than from VW Group main dealers! AliExpress do sell "compatible" ones in packs of 10, maybe I should take a pop at them for next year's services - just how tricky can it be to make an alloy crushable sealing washer seeing as zip all is actually manufactured in Europe these days, finding out the hard way would hurt though if I needed to lose a litre or so of oil to replace a washer after my China made ones failed.

 

[Mr Pig]

Funny thing is, the VW parts supplier gave me long bolts with the steel washer despite the fact neither of the cars I was ordering for have alloy sumps. I've fitted that to my daughter's car. I'll need to keep an eye on it as it's clearly the wrong one and it should have an alloy washer on it.

 

[Mr Pig]

Finally, crushable alloy washers, has anyone ever spotted them being sold in "10s" and at a sensible price, so far I've failed to find any.

I see the Chinese ones on eBay for the kind of money one should pay for a bag of alloy washers! I agree, it's a hard part to get drastically wrong. A disk punched out of a sheet of aluminum. Personally, I can't think of any reason why that might fail.

 

[RUM4MO]

I'm sure that old late 2001 Ibiza 1.4 8V had a steel sump, and I replaced the short plug and separate copper(?) washer with a longer one with the washer fitted to it - that car was only kept for a few years, but its steel sump seemed to accept the solid steel washer okay - as far as I can remember.

 

[Mr Pig]

I'm sure that old late 2001 Ibiza 1.4 8V had a steel sump, and I replaced the short plug and separate copper(?) washer with a longer one with the washer fitted to it - that car was only kept for a few years, but its steel sump seemed to accept the solid steel washer okay - as far as I can remember.

I think that's one of those things you might get away with it or you might not. It's not like all the oil will suddenly drop out of the bottom of the car! Worst case is a steady leak so I'll keep an eye on it and if it leaks I'll replace it.

 

[SuperV8]

At least you get a metal sump plug!
On my first service of my parents new (to them) Citroen C4 Picasso 2.0HDI - I was searching for a sump plug and/or washer - but couldn't find any linked to that vehicle! Only O-rings!
Turns out all new PSA cars have plastic sumps and plastic sump plugs with O-rings!
What's worse is the o-ring is some propriety size so your assorted box of metric o-rings won't be any good. Had to by the OE o-ring for a fiver!

 

[SuperV8]

I think that's one of those things you might get away with it or you might not. It's not like all the oil will suddenly drop out of the bottom of the car! Worst case is a steady leak so I'll keep an eye on it and if it leaks I'll replace it.

I had my sump plug back out on me a couple years ago, driving down the road and my low oil light came on! pulled of the road and checked and sure enough low oil on the dip stick. It was at night, and luckily I had pulled into a fuel station, so brought 1 Litre of oil and carefully drove home with no oil light on. On removing the undertray the next day I found the sump plug loose only engaged by a few threads! Very luck it didn't fall out! Now I always torque my sump plugs haha.

 

[RUM4MO]

That unusual tale of a sump plug backing out reminded me of an issue with a certain age of Ford Transit where the spin on oil filters seemed to be able to back out, very inconvenient!

Of course the easier way of ending up with a leaking sump, if your car has a steel sump pan or steel sump plate cover, is corrosion, I treated the sump pan on that late 2009 Ibiza 1.4 16V with a lot of care, making sure any signs of rusting were dealt with at service time as the front face seemed to get attacked by road debris. I did that as I needed to replace the sump on a Ford Fiesta 1.1 8V that my wife had - I had not been prepared for sudden sump rotting to start happening while that car was quite new - but Ford had changed from good/suitable black paint to grey paint that you could wipe clean off using most cleaners. I prepared the new sump by wiping the paint off it using meths, yes all the paint came off, and then covered it with black Hammerite paint, the entire contents of a small tin - that worked apart from the unsightly runs of paint.

 

[Crossthreaded]

Yip, makes sense. The only oddball is the short bolt with the torx head but I googled that. It looks like they fit that because they don't intend to remove it for oil changes, the suck the oil out instead.

Never been a fan of sucking oil out via the dip stick tube myself. I recon "bits" are more likely to be expelled when you pull a good old sump plug on a nice hot engine. Mind you, non of us would hope to see "bits" anyway!

By the way, whilst we are on this sort of subject, who pre-fills their oil filters? (assuming this can easily be done and that it's a canister type) I've done it for most of my life but came across a directive - from Caterpillar if I remember - a few years ago to only fit oil filters "dry" as they come out of the packet. The thinking being that when you prefill a filter you are putting oil into the engine side of the filter medium which greatly increases the possibility of contaminants being transferred to bearing shells etc, as that oil will be unfiltered before entering the oil galleries. I've continued to prefill my filters in the mean time, and never knowingly had a problem, and I'd forgotten about this directive until watching a video on one of my favourite you tube channels, "Rainman Ray": https://www.youtube.com/c/rainmanraysrepairs where he said he never prefills oil filters for that very reason and it's set me to thinking. So, anyone got an opinion?

 

[Crossthreaded]

Yes, a bit of a funny old game, I remember that the steel sump on my daughter's first Ibiza, a late 2001 1.4 8V with a steel sump, had a short sump plug with a replaceable sealing washer, then my 2000 VW Passat 2.8 V6 had an alloy sump with a long bolt with a captive washer, then wife's 2002 VW Polo 1.4 16V had an alloy sump and a long sump plug with a captive washer, as did my daughter's late 2009 Ibiza 1.4 16V. Then I bought a 2011 Audi S4 with a steel base on the sump, and it had a short sump plug with a female hex on it and used alloy crush washers, also my wife's 2015 VW Polo 1.2TSI 16V with a steel base on the sump uses a short sump plug with a male hex on it and uses the same alloy crush washers - and that is quite handy, but more expensive than the old plug/washer combo. Daughter's 2019 Leon Cupra has one of these plastic sump plugs, by maybe that will be her partner's problem and not mine!

Finally, crushable alloy washers, has anyone ever spotted them being sold in "10s" and at a sensible price, so far I've failed to find any, Febi are even more expensive than from VW Group main dealers! AliExpress do sell "compatible" ones in packs of 10, maybe I should take a pop at them for next year's services - just how tricky can it be to make an alloy crushable sealing washer seeing as zip all is actually manufactured in Europe these days, finding out the hard way would hurt though if I needed to lose a litre or so of oil to replace a washer after my China made ones failed.

Packets of 10 (or thereabouts) crushable washers? Yes RUM, I've got 2 packs I bought about 4 years, maybe more, ago sitting in the garage right now. Bought one for the VAG vehicles and one for the Jazz but I think they are both 14mm if I remember? I'll have a look when we get home and see if there's a label still on them. Definitely bought from ebay so I'll see if I can trace them on my account too.

That unusual tale of a sump plug backing out reminded me of an issue with a certain age of Ford Transit where the spin on oil filters seemed to be able to back out, very inconvenient!

Of course the easier way of ending up with a leaking sump, if your car has a steel sump pan or steel sump plate cover, is corrosion, I treated the sump pan on that late 2009 Ibiza 1.4 16V with a lot of care, making sure any signs of rusting were dealt with at service time as the front face seemed to get attacked by road debris. I did that as I needed to replace the sump on a Ford Fiesta 1.1 8V that my wife had - I had not been prepared for sudden sump rotting to start happening while that car was quite new - but Ford had changed from good/suitable black paint to grey paint that you could wipe clean off using most cleaners. I prepared the new sump by wiping the paint off it using meths, yes all the paint came off, and then covered it with black Hammerite paint, the entire contents of a small tin - that worked apart from the unsightly runs of paint.

Being, for my sins, a bit of a fan for small Fiats, I know all about rusty metal sumps. The F.I.R.E. engines - also found in other vehicles like the Ford ka - is renowned for rusty sumps. I like Frost's chassis black myself: https://www.frost.co.uk/frost-chassis-black-paint/ I find it more chip resistant than Hammerite when used on exposed underparts. Not that I'm knocking the Hammerite - an excellent product of which I must have used several gallons over the years.

 

[RUM4MO]

Never been a fan of sucking oil out via the dip stick tube myself. I recon "bits" are more likely to be expelled when you pull a good old sump plug on a nice hot engine. Mind you, non of us would hope to see "bits" anyway!

By the way, whilst we are on this sort of subject, who pre-fills their oil filters? (assuming this can easily be done and that it's a canister type) I've done it for most of my life but came across a directive - from Caterpillar if I remember - a few years ago to only fit oil filters "dry" as they come out of the packet. The thinking being that when you prefill a filter you are putting oil into the engine side of the filter medium which greatly increases the possibility of contaminants being transferred to bearing shells etc, as that oil will be unfiltered before entering the oil galleries. I've continued to prefill my filters in the mean time, and never knowingly had a problem, and I'd forgotten about this directive until watching a video on one of my favourite you tube channels, "Rainman Ray": https://www.youtube.com/c/rainmanraysrepairs where he said he never prefills oil filters for that very reason and it's set me to thinking. So, anyone got an opinion?

I'm with you there, both of us would be being sensible and making sure that we were loading clean oil in from a clean "oil jug" or an oil can that had a clean/cleaned top - but I can see that making that "general rule for all" would stop idiots feeding an engine with nasties in with the new oil used to prime/soak the filter element.

 

[SuperV8]

I'm with you there, both of us would be being sensible and making sure that we were loading clean oil in from a clean "oil jug" or an oil can that had a clean/cleaned top - but I can see that making that "general rule for all" would stop idiots feeding an engine with nasties in with the new oil used to prime/soak the filter element.

I always pre-fill my oil filters where I can. I only ever use brand new 5L oil.
If brand new oil from Castrol or Mobil needed filtering before being used they wouldn't be in business for long.
The 'do not pre fill your filters' from Caterpillar is from a completely different market to our passenger cars. Large machines and plant work in a very different environment and I can easily envisage a rusty/dusty barrel of oil being used for oil changes.

 

[Crossthreaded]

I always pre-fill my oil filters where I can. I only ever use brand new 5L oil.
If brand new oil from Castrol or Mobil needed filtering before being used they wouldn't be in business for long.
The 'do not pre fill your filters' from Caterpillar is from a completely different market to our passenger cars. Large machines and plant work in a very different environment and I can easily envisage a rusty/dusty barrel of oil being used for oil changes.

I'm with you both on this one (RUM and Super V8) I'll be continuing to pre-fill my filters where it's practical to do. Some filters, especially on diesels, are pretty large and must take a measurable time for the pump to fill. I've seen some large diesels with 2 filters side by side but I don't know if they run the oil through them in "series" or Parallel"? V8, you make a very good point about environment, also you just can't factor in the "fitter in a hurry who couldn't care less" element.

 

[Mr Pig]

I pour some oil into the filter, except for my daughters Toledo as it would make one heck of a mess of the alternator if I did! Don't know why I do it, does it maker sense? Don't know. Does it do any harm? I doubt it. Oil out of the can is clean, any dirt in the filter is in there anyway and you've just poured oil all over the engine-side of the filter when you put the new oil in so I'm not seeing a reason to get worked up about this. Any minor contaminants are going to get caught in the filter pretty quickly so it's all good I think.

 

[RUM4MO]

It might be down to being able to acquire the necessary skills to get the filled filter up and turned horizontal, AND engaging it into the thread on the engine while completely ignoring the oil running down your arm and over the outside of the filter can and still being able to grip the filter well enough to rotate it while it is covered in clean engine oil! I can easily understand others thinking, F' it, I'll just fit it dry!

 

[Crossthreaded]

It might be down to being able to acquire the necessary skills to get the filled filter up and turned horizontal, AND engaging it into the thread on the engine while completely ignoring the oil running down your arm and over the outside of the filter can and still being able to grip the filter well enough to rotate it while it is covered in clean engine oil! I can easily understand others thinking, F' it, I'll just fit it dry!

Ha Ha! Absolutely. But on a horizontal filter I would only half fill it for that reason - mind you maybe it's then worth asking if it's worth doing, especially on the tiddly wee filter on my current Ibiza?