Reporting nav errors to Seat?

[LaCuentaJetable]

Hello all!

Quick version: What's the best way to report a navigation problem to Seat? It's a "should prefer this road instead of this one" kind of problem. Bonus points if I can report it in the UK, so they will take the report in English.

Long version: This spring, I rented a Cupra Born on a trip to Germany. The built-in navigation mostly worked well, but it did have one problem. When I was on a certain side of town, and asked for directions back to my hotel, it sent me down a gravel road. There was a parallel city street that it should have preferred instead. It was repeatable - it would pick the gravel road consistently whenever I asked for navigation from that side of town. I learned to ignore it and take the city street.

I took pictures of all the "about" screens on the nav, so I know what version of the software, maps, etc were installed. I don't have the car anymore.

I'd prefer to report it somewhere in the UK, as then I can write the report in English. I can report it in German but I'm not nearly as good at it.

Thanks!

 

[Tell]

You can investigate with

HERE Map Creator

mapcreator.here.com

The mib3 maps are Here Maps. Mib2 high gives you three options you pick the red route. Pass on mib3 implementation. Red is the quickest so takes you on main roads. Local roads tend to be on the other options.

Problem that they have with the routine algorithm is if the speed is digitised incorrectly it will take you on these roads. Round here there are single track roads which you won't get up to 60 mph on. More like 10 mph. So you get these nasty events with satnav where the road has an unrealistic speed. HereMaps cartography you can enter the road speed and the average one. On the 60 mph it should probably be bracketed as much slower. Whether they would take it. Think not, they have ignored my changes. They take the statuary speed from the local authority, whatever they classify them as on that type of road. Ofcourse the routine algorithm can ignore the bracketed realistic speed and take the statuary top speed. Then you have the issue of unmade roads. UK these would not be digitised if not public. Google maps is fond of digitising farm tracks which when joined up by the routine algorithm in the car takes you on a wild goose chase.

Well my secret in foreign parts is we run with two navigation systems then a second one on my lap zooming out and in. How I've got about Japan with that over ten years. Act as the navigator. Often the cars built in satnav didnt have the road in not having been updated. Google maps is "banned" in Japan, ditto South Korea so you have OpenStreet running or their local systems on your tablet... shouting out directions or its OK we will rejoin soon... take a left etc.

You might be able to use way points in mib3. Mib2 you can. The dentist I have as a route, which uses way points. Without that its cross country, single track roads and dangerous intersections over main roads... fun of rural UK to get to the dentist. After doing it once, changed to way points using the main roads. Google Maps would take you on this wild goose chase as well.

So to answer your question for mib2 high and mib3 you can use map creator. Mib2 standard uses TomTom maps so that's a more simple way of telling them the mistakes. Suspect they have digitised roads which shouldn't be. I have a running one with Google maps here that takes tourists through a dead end road up a farm track to a country hotel. Oh another one. Google wont take my reports. Amazon et al all bounce down the farm track, that traffic re-enforces that it is a road since they see it. These become probes on cartography validation same as you going down the gravel road. Yep, that report is wrong, you can drive down it. The Here Maps one in village Ive altered to a footpath which it is apart from the slurry vehicles and the tourists and locals going to church... these cart lanes were always routes but not in the sense we know.

The HereMaps reports are reviewed by the local team and flagged up for others who have registered an interest. Some AI is deployed and you need to check the edits every week or so to see whether they have taken or reverted. TomTom reporting uses a tick, cross approach. Speed changes they take seriously so users can't change them on a whim. I dont think TomTom has ever taken any of mine although they are clearly wrong as a town has been built out forcing the speed limits down.

The short answer the gravel road shouldn't have been digitised or if it was a really slow speed applied so the algorithm opted for the main road. Off road / on road, paved or not paved is in Here Maps cartography but the cars navigation to pick that up I dont think is implemented on Vag cars only the speed. So if the road is wrongly classed against speed it will take you up it.

 

[LaCuentaJetable]

HERE Map Creator

mapcreator.here.com

That turned out to be the key, thanks!

The particular road that the nav (wrongly) sent me down was labeled as "residential" for its entire length. That's actually true for the first block or two (paved road, several houses), but after that, it was just a gravel road through farm fields. It was also right for the last block (paved road next to a small industrial plant).

The gravel road was such that the Born could navigate it OK, but then again, it hadn't rained a lot in the past few days. If there had been lots of rain... maybe not so much.

I logged in to Here Maps and set the gravel part of the road to "pedestrian path", as that seemed to match what other farm-only roads were set to in that area.

UK these would not be digitised if not public. Google maps is fond of digitising farm tracks which when joined up by the routine algorithm in the car takes you on a wild goose chase.

Here in the USA, a lot of road data comes from "TIGER", which is a product of the US Census. Quite a lot of this data was originally automatically digitized from satellite images, and not reviewed, so it has a lot of farm roads / field-access roads in it, which nobody but the farmer should ever attempt to drive on.

Well my secret in foreign parts is we run with two navigation systems then a second one on my lap zooming out and in.

I had an Android phone, but I didn't mess around with it in my lap, or connecting it to the car, except to charge.

Google maps is "banned" in Japan, ditto South Korea so you have OpenStreet running or their local systems on your tablet... shouting out directions or its OK we will rejoin soon... take a left etc.

I had a relative from Europe visit before, and bring their satnav. At first they thought it didn't work at all, but I told them they needed to leave it powered up with a good sky view for a couple of hours, and "she'll be right". (It had to get a new almanac and ephemeris.) I don't think they believed me, but they did what I said... and it started working. Mid 2000s.

One day, we amused ourselves by driving places we already knew how to get to, while listening to Frau TomTom's directions in Hungarian, Polish, etc.

I have edited OpenStreetMap before, so using Here's editor was fun. Here doesn't seem to have the concept of "yes, there is a road here, but you can't drive on it". Like, roads inside a big industrial plant, or electricity substation - things that are private.

The HereMaps reports are reviewed by the local team and flagged up for others who have registered an interest. Some AI is deployed and you need to check the edits every week or so to see whether they have taken or reverted.

Good to know. I just now did the edit, so I'll check back in a while.

Thanks!

 

[Tell]

That turned out to be the key, thanks!

The particular road that the nav (wrongly) sent me down was labeled as "residential" for its entire length. That's actually true for the first block or two (paved road, several houses), but after that, it was just a gravel road through farm fields. It was also right for the last block (paved road next to a small industrial plant).

The gravel road was such that the Born could navigate it OK, but then again, it hadn't rained a lot in the past few days. If there had been lots of rain... maybe not so much.

I logged in to Here Maps and set the gravel part of the road to "pedestrian path", as that seemed to match what other farm-only roads were set to in that area.


Here in the USA, a lot of road data comes from "TIGER", which is a product of the US Census. Quite a lot of this data was originally automatically digitized from satellite images, and not reviewed, so it has a lot of farm roads / field-access roads in it, which nobody but the farmer should ever attempt to drive on.


I had an Android phone, but I didn't mess around with it in my lap, or connecting it to the car, except to charge.


I had a relative from Europe visit before, and bring their satnav. At first they thought it didn't work at all, but I told them they needed to leave it powered up with a good sky view for a couple of hours, and "she'll be right". (It had to get a new almanac and ephemeris.) I don't think they believed me, but they did what I said... and it started working. Mid 2000s.

One day, we amused ourselves by driving places we already knew how to get to, while listening to Frau TomTom's directions in Hungarian, Polish, etc.

I have edited OpenStreetMap before, so using Here's editor was fun. Here doesn't seem to have the concept of "yes, there is a road here, but you can't drive on it". Like, roads inside a big industrial plant, or electricity substation - things that are private.


Good to know. I just now did the edit, so I'll check back in a while.

Thanks!

Glad that helped. Post implementation they have the pre release Herewego app. So the edits get shifted into the development database which you were editing and looking at into the release database. Herewego is the user checking one of what really happens. Now since the HereMaps are released monthly into the car through the online system the Herewego app may reflect what the cars seeing once it gets the update. I'm not sure whether the Herewego app is the live data or the pre release. It's that one where you can spot daft navigation which also tallies with the car. National Trust properties round here I did wonder why the car wanted to take you up dirt roads with electric cattle fences that you unclipped. All tallied. A loony armchair mapper. We also have live military tank ranges with them doing their thing. Roads which are never open to public digitised and ones which the tanks proceed down to take up their firing positions. Another loony mapper had put them in. Not public roads. Think the MOD knows their own way across their ranges. In the past the public has been killed by tanks crossing roads with the public venturing down them in their cars. Most deaths these days are service people in the wrong place with stray bullets or tanks backfiring since bits have been left off them. The range in question has a notice up, "dont follow GPS". Think they had enough of TomTom users trying to cut across their range using maps not updated. One of my tasks is to eyeball the range to make sure no jokers have been at it again. The internal service roads were also in HereMaps had I had removed. Sheep farmers when the range isnt in use are the only ones that can drive them... like the National Trust dirt roads. I have a stand off with Google Maps on the local farm track where one presumes a delivery driver left a dog dieing. The owner was walking around looking for a damaged car. Long gone, will have been a courier following satnav using Google maps. Google maps wont remove the road on my repeated attempts, so I refuse to edit Google Maps now, they can rot in hell. Rural area some folk allow their dogs to wander as if farm dogs around a farm. Not a good idea considering the farm track is treated as a through road.

 

[LaCuentaJetable]

We also have live military tank ranges with them doing their thing. Roads which are never open to public digitised and ones which the tanks proceed down to take up their firing positions. Another loony mapper had put them in. Not public roads. Think the MOD knows their own way across their ranges. In the past the public has been killed by tanks crossing roads with the public venturing down them in their cars.

Okay... this made me curious. I logged into Here Maps and went to a spot in the state that we like to call "Fort Lost-in-the-woods". Plenty of roads that should only ever be navigated by Army vehicles, like a deuce-and-a-half, or a five-ton, or a tank.

"Residential road" for everyone everywhere. LOL.

Even Google has no Street View for the area, because their mapping cars can't get past the front gate to the tank playground.

Think they had enough of TomTom users trying to cut across their range using maps not updated.

When I did my preliminary Googling for this question, I found a few-years-old post on Reddit, which said "Why do VW (Seat, Skoda) vehicles keep coming down this road by my farmhouse? It goes through a ford that you can only navigate with 4wd when it's kind of dry, and not at all when it's wet." I'm pretty sure the poster was in England. HERE maps strikes again!

Google maps wont remove the road on my repeated attempts, so I refuse to edit Google Maps now, they can rot in hell.

I don't fw Google at all, so I avoid that whole scene.

Thanks!

 

[Tell]

Okay... this made me curious. I logged into Here Maps and went to a spot in the state that we like to call "Fort Lost-in-the-woods". Plenty of roads that should only ever be navigated by Army vehicles, like a deuce-and-a-half, or a five-ton, or a tank.

"Residential road" for everyone everywhere. LOL.

Even Google has no Street View for the area, because their mapping cars can't get past the front gate to the tank playground.


When I did my preliminary Googling for this question, I found a few-years-old post on Reddit, which said "Why do VW (Seat, Skoda) vehicles keep coming down this road by my farmhouse? It goes through a ford that you can only navigate with 4wd when it's kind of dry, and not at all when it's wet." I'm pretty sure the poster was in England. HERE maps strikes again!


I don't fw Google at all, so I avoid that whole scene.

Thanks!

Well some people dont understand mapping and think it creates itself. Google maps being commercially driven from advertising has far more business POIs on it driven by postcodes in the UK. They aren't very accurate so they get blobbed into the rough location. Here Maps also scrapes Facebook to make good its POIs so you get very weird locations for excessive sexual outdoor activity . I remove those. Dogging nightclubs. Let you Google that if it isnt a term you are familiar with. The POIs hadn't been QAed... hmm. Wondered how that stuff was getting in. Might be better managed these days. Probably stopped scrapping Facebook.

Wiki on HereMaps

Here Technologies - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

It came out of Navteq where it and TomTom were the most popular GPS car systems least in Europe when Google Maps came on the scene. Navteq / HereMaps changed hands a few times. Part of Nokia for a time. Think at the time Microsoft bought Nokia then sold it on again after a few years, the HereMaps company was sold onto the European car group of companies as not being Nokias core business that Microsoft wanted to own. Then other tech companies bought shares in HereMaps, now based in the Netherlands.

Some people would like Google or Car Play to be the infotainment system but given the car's maps are used for predictive regenerative braking in EVs, speed management (ACC) and self drive in the future, that's unlikely to happen as manufacturers want proper maps. Pass what Chinese companies do like BYD.

Here Maps contains main roads with a precise level of accuracy for self drive. Those you can't change. Once off these precise roads, HereMaps expects the cars sensors to do the rest. We'll see.

The entertainment part of the car is likely always to be an adjoint to the software not that which dictates the firmware although I believe Google has its eye on that business with other car companies. Vag uses a Linux car software consortium operating system. CARIAD. Linux car open or something but the company is:

CARIAD – Automotive Software for Volkswagen

At CARIAD, we believe that software has the potential to reshape the automotive experience for everyone, everywhere. Find out how!

cariad.technology

That's the current glue for the cars systems and HereMaps is the cartography that integrates into it.

 

[LaCuentaJetable]

Well some people dont understand mapping and think it creates itself.

Fun fact: if you go to the US Air Force's GPS page, the first thing it says in big letters is "We don't make the maps. If you have trouble with the maps, please contact Google, Apple, Garmin, etc. We just tell you where you are."

Here Maps also scrapes Facebook to make good its POIs so you get very weird locations for excessive sexual outdoor activity .

I don't know anything about that.

It came out of Navteq where it and TomTom were the most popular GPS car systems least in Europe when Google Maps came on the scene.

In the US, the big name was probably Garmin, at least until smartphones happened.

Some people would like Google or Car Play to be the infotainment system but given the car's maps are used for predictive regenerative braking in EVs, speed management (ACC) and self drive in the future, that's unlikely to happen as manufacturers want proper maps.

Possibly interesting: the Born "knew" when the speed limit changed, like when going into town from out in the country. It would beep and flash the speed-limit sign at me on the speedometer. I figure that could be done with a map database, because it doesn't change very often.

In the area I was driving, they were building a new high-voltage (high-tension) power line - big steel lattice towers, ropes and cables on pulleys. There were a couple of spots on the roads where they had established work zones, where the new power line crossed the road - one of them even had mesh/netting over the road, where they were working.

The Born also knew where these work zones were, and flashed the speed limit and beeped at me when I was going too fast. On reflection, I don't think these work zones were in the map database.

My guess is that the Born had a camera that could see the work zone speed limit sign. We live in the FUTURE.

Here Maps contains main roads with a precise level of accuracy for self drive. Those you can't change. Once off these precise roads, HereMaps expects the cars sensors to do the rest. We'll see.

For what it's worth, I logged in to Here Maps a week later, and my changes are still there. I'll keep checking back.

Thanks!

 

[Tell]

My guess is that the Born had a camera that could see the work zone speed limit sign. We live in the FUTURE.

Most cars with lane assist / traffic signs recognition (TSR) have the aperture V shaped high definition camera, example below. The aperture V mask is so it only can see ahead (like a racing horse blinker). The auto dip which some cars have use the imaging off the camera to spot on-coming headlights and does the dipping for you. It can also be used to sense moving objects (cars) to suppress undertaking, brakes applied, warning. Clever stuff. Digital image processing.

That one (undertaking) can be turned off with VCDS type of coding although access to those type of systems is prohibited in new cars from 2025 on. They dont want you turning off safety features. The stop undertaking feature in lane assist frustrated some drivers that do undertake at motorway junction or if they just want to undertake. We mean overtake on the wrong side.

Example lane assist / TSR aperture "V" camera :

You can look out for the high definition cameras if you are a geek. Without knowing the spec you eyeball what type of camera is mounted on the front windscreen at the top by the mirror. See an aperture V shape and its the lane assist camera that has all the other uses including TSR.

Those cameras also need special setup if the windscreen is changed. Glued back into the right place with a test image to tune up the system. Ditto with lane assist you are suppose to have the wheels correctly aligned if you have the tracking done. Lane assist without correctly aligned wheels isnt good. Again specialist equipment but there are tricks that tyre places can do. They preserve dead ahead then do the 4 wheel alignment without the top spec equipmet. As the automation has come in, specific service procedures are required to maintain it.

BTW the TSR function can be turned on and off. Take the speed from the digitised maps only or with augmented TSR. Vag call that dynamic speed recognition. In mib2 cars it shows up on the warning as exceeding the 'dynamic road speed'. Pass on what it says on mib3, probably the same. TSR has many benefits. One on temporary road works and another on dynamic traffic speed roads where the speed is changed on road conditions.

You can get periodic misreads. Example is the 20 mph speed limit signs put in, in Wales. Not enough distance is left between the main road and the side road with the 20mph sign. In that case it reads the speed sign for the minor road on bends if it sees "20". The speed signs were all erected overnight when the 20 mph speed came in by local council staff in a blitz. Positioning isnt as good as it could be for TSR.

Those cars driving with ACC on, will get a warning and braking applied where they exceed the TSR read or road digitised speed.