Stage 3 On Lc - Advice Please!

[DomJolly]

Yes I know I should get an FMIC but this is my question:

Cost:

K04 £699 - 225-260bhp
GT2X £999 <300bhp
GT28RS £1500 <350bhp

FMIC ~£650

Fitting and remap costs are the same.

I do not have an FMIC.

If the GT2X is a more capable turbo, and if not pushed to limit, so set to ~270bhp rather than 300, surely it won't require an FMIC as it is not straining and is acheiving such figure more efficiently and therefore not causing high inlet temps. Whereas, with the K04, to reach 260bhp, an FMIC would certainly be wise as it must be reaching very high inlet temps.

The cost of the FMIC is ~£650 and i cannot see how i'd have better performance with a K04 and FMIC than the GT2X with my stock SMIC.

I find my car quick and satisfying, but I do want more. In fact i actually find that i have too much low down torque for the FWD to cope with, and it's mid range and progressive pull to the top that I'm looking for. I would be very happy with a K04 and that really is all i'm looking for, but I don't want to risk reducing the reliability and longevity of the engine by not having sufficient cooling. Can you see where i'm coming from about the FMIC+K04 vs. GT2X+stock SMIC argument? The latter of the 2 is cheaper and will have better performance and progressive power.

An FMIC could be a completion mod some time later, and therefore I could see the full potential of the GT2X. There's no point paying for a K04 and FMIC, to then change to a GT2X, but to get the GT2X and later get an FMIC makes more sense.

I have heard more than one suggestion regarding the more capable turbos being less needy of an FMIC provided they are not taken to limit.


http://www.atpturbo.com


These are "AT THE WHEELS" power graphs from the ATP Eliminator series Garrett GT2X fitted to a 1.8 20vt 180 FWD transverse mount:


WHP as dynoed on 2002 5speed 1.8T GTI (AWP) with:
ATP Eliminator GT2X bolt-on turbo
ATP High Flow Inlet pipe option for Elim GT2X
Factory Stock Exhaust Manifold
ATP 3" Downpipe for stock K03 turbo
Factory Stock Exhaust
Factory Stock Side Mounted Intercooler and all stock hoses
Mika Tuned ECU Tuning with 550cc injectors
http://www.atpturbo.com/root/releases/images/release012606/eliminator_transverse_dyno1.gif


WHP as dynoed on 2002 5speed 1.8T GTI (AWP) with:

** Added VES in front of Factory Stock Exhaust
ATP Eliminator GT2X bolt-on turbo
ATP High Flow Inlet pipe option for Elim GT2X
Factory Stock Exhaust Manifold
ATP 3" Downpipe for stock K03 turbo
Factory Stock Exhaust
Factory Stock Side Mounted Intercooler and all stock hoses
Mika Tuned ECU Tuning with 550cc injectors
http://www.atpturbo.com/root/releases/images/release012606/eliminator_transverse_dyno2.gif



Q: what's "ADDED VES in front of factory stock exhaust"? Any ideas?


also, other option is TurboDynamics, very close to me, will rebuilt my K03s with K04 internals, therefore totally stealth appearance, for £650. Problem is, they need the turbo from my car for a week, and they don't touch 'cars' just turbos - less convenient! He said, in that case, manifold and FMIC are essential to reduce risk of damage to engine through detonation and high intake temps.

 

[Pabs]

I have a thread on this very recently.

Costs will be a lot more than that mate!

Diff. turbo will usually need new DP (you already have it) you'll probably need new manifold, new injectors, etc etc....
And with extra power - have you considered the bigger brakes to cope with it? Don't want to see you in any sticky situations...

Bigger brakes can usually be bigger than the std 17" wheels will take too, so bigger alloys may be needed...


I'm only suggesting the above, as its what people told me.

 

[Pabs]

oh and for ref - the k04 on the LCR has two SMIC's - must be for a reason....

The temps on LC's /LCR's have, so i've been told, reaches 90-100 degrees before - FMIC see's low 30's if you are lucky

 

[DomJolly]

Hmm, so basically we're in a rut then?

This is the point i'm trying to make:

I have 3 main options within my budget (not actually that affordable though!):

Option 1:
K04 £699
550cc INJECTORS £350
FMIC £650
ATP MANIFOLD £299
FITTING £200-300
REVO STAGE 3 REMAP £399
SAMCO TIP £115
TOTAL £2,812 - MAX

= Should have 250-260bhp

Option 2:
ATP Eliminator GT2X (Garrett) £900
550cc INJECTORS £350
ATP MANIFOLD £299
FITTING £200-300
REVO STAGE 3 REMAP £399
SAMCO TIP £115
TOTAL £2,363 - MAX

= Should have ~270.

Advantage: More power, spent less. If upgraded with FMIC at a later date, could have 300bhp.

Both costs are subject to requiring better brakes, for sensibility, but Brembos aren't the only option and as far as i'm aware don't come with an S3?

OPTION 3:
I am still considering the much cheaper option of keeping a low profile with the car and retaining the K03S and just getting:

Samco TIP £115
ATP Manifold £299
FMIC £650
TOTAL COST = £1,064.

Advantage: whilst I still won't get the 'progressive' power delivery of a bigger turbo, I will have the most refined K03s set up possible and surely the more free flowing and stronger manifold, samco TIP and FMIC will not only maximise the 'flow' aspect of my stage 2, but maintain the lowest possible intake temps which will be better for the internals with regards to reducing detonation, but also free up a bit more top end power too. As far as warranty situations are concerned, quite little has actually been done, compared with bolting on a 300hp turbo! Now why is this sounding more sensible all of a sudden?

What I do not want is the same subtle gain as experienced with stage 2. I really was gutted. However, if I am gutted, a K04 + stage 3 is 'only' another £1,600!!!!

Now, the whole idea is going to pot! I think tuners should go to the expense of providing honest RR figures for these options - as I'm sure i can't be the only one considering. The only drawback is the risk of almost no gains! So come on guys, if you're gonna sell it, give some preview to the realistic gains!!!

If I saw a dyno of before and after stage 2, from stage 1, I would not have gone to that expense!

 

[Pabs]

From Revo's website:
Stage 3 Software £699.00

Its not all reduced like stage 1.

 

[Pabs]

the s3 does have bigger (256mm) rear brakes though.....

 

[DomJolly]

B@stards! That's it... i'm gonna sel up and get a skyline! I mean, what are these tuners trying to do to us eh?

oh., yeah - the skyline doesn't have ISOFIX mounting points for baby seats. Damn.

Just not a fan of scoobys, nor evo's. Think they look cheap and are far from subtle. But the performance is ace (STI Prodrive or FQ300<).

An S3 is tempting, but too much cash. Only apparant advantage over the LCR is the 4WD and leather.

I can feel an 'R' coming on... with just an easy £399 stage 1 and i will honestly stop there!

You know, I feel really gutted I got stage 2. Seriously, i could hardly tell the difference and i don't think Revo made it at all clear what the gains would be... and now i'm looking at possibly changing, I'm nearly 1k worse off cos of stage 2. Stage 1 was a bargain though, and I would not complain about that little expense for a huge gain. Feeling very sour about stage 2. Mid silencer of Millek xorst is touching when cold, the back box resonates too much on high boost - not even a pleasant tone, and the car ain't smooth (problem to be investigated). Not the most happy bunny to think about it.

 

[Feel]

You should be able to get a new K04-23 for around £350, and highest intake temp I've ever seen on mine (LCR) was 51*C.

Wouldn't you need a new DP/exhaust if you went K04-23? Not sure the outlet would line straight up either...

 

[Pabs]

I went straight to stage 2 - was and always have been happy. Seen stage 1 cars with similar mods, and they just don't perform the same.

Anyway, that aside, I had the mods for stage 2, and the extra £50 was worth it IMO.

 

[Saul]

its a progressive curve though

if you went big turbo, you would still need the parts you bought for stage 2

did you think you would have lcr power from stage 2?

did you not think that that could not be possible with a k-03s?

 

[rst_cupra_r]

aint revo £499on the lcr anyway

 

[YerMother]

Why do just buy an LCR!

 

[YerMother]

Seriously though you would probably better going dor the GT2X. Then you can keep same DP and exhaust! Then see if Custom Code (Or who ever will map it for you!) I assume you have all the bits though as you have stage 2 appart from the FMIC! You should see 280 BHP but will quickly drop off with the tiny SMIC! FMIC will prolong peak power!

You may need to change injectors too! Not 550cc! 330cc will be fine! Have no idea why they have gone for 550cc on the GT2X just overkill IMO!

 

[Pabs]

I'm definately getting the FMIC first, see how the car fares, then see about turbo upgrade. Perhaps just the k04 hybrid, but then might go the whole hog

 

[YerMother]

Well feel said above i have never seen AIT above 50'C on a LCR with Standard twin SMIC, I'm just waiting till summer now to see what affect my FMIC has!

The SMIC I have seen logs where the inlet temps have been high 70'c

 

[Pabs]

sorry - should have said - the temps i said above were apparently from an LC so it only has the 1 SMIC... I'd obviously assume that having two of them would do a much better job at keeping temps down

 

[Pabs]

question - sorry for taking this away from thread starter - but is it possible to use a Milltek DP/Cat (200 cell version) with bigger turbo?
I'd assume that the cat would be ok - can the DP be changed on its own?

 

[YerMother]

question - sorry for taking this away from thread starter - but is it possible to use a Milltek DP/Cat (200 cell version) with bigger turbo?
I'd assume that the cat would be ok - can the DP be changed on its own?

No you would have to get a DP to suit the location of the turbo's exhaust housing

Unless of course your tlaking about the ATP Elminators which are designed to use/fit the standard manifold and DP locations!

 

[Pabs]

of course.... means k04 won't be any good to me then - or too costly to change DP/CAT as well?

 

[YerMother]

Yea unfortunetly it ain't a straight swap! Defo need to change the DP not sure about the CAT!