Suspension question

[bojo_ri]

Hi all,
Since switching to the Leon 1.9 TDI150 a couple moths back from a rather light nippy Fiesta (with aftermarket suspension), I have found that the Leon behaves a bit vague on the steering side and also more body roll is present.
The car is all stock, no performance hardware/software added.

Anyways, if I'd like to improve the handling a little bit, would it make more sense to put in Powerflex (or similar) bushings (and which parts exactly??), or am I looking at a complete coilover rework here?

Thx

 

[L16YDW]

Rear anti roll bar upgrade is the best handling upgrade I've read over the years.

I had kw shocks and springs, fully poly bushed, front and rear anti roll bars and while it handled really well was still vague. I've recently fitted the steering rack, lower arms and hubs from the cupra R / TT and that transformed it feels great now, no longer vague and 10x better turn in etc!

 

[Muttley]

TDI 150 suspension should be the "sports" variant - lower and stiffer than the "comfort" version found on most of the Mk.1 Leans. You can check by looking at the option codes, those three-letter codes at the bottom of your build sheet (sticker in the service book and on the boot floor or in the wheel well). Pretty much the last code will be Gnn, which can be interpreted as follows:

Sports suspension
PR G26/G61/G62/G63/G64/G96/G99.

Standard suspension
PR G22/G23/G24/G25.

Also, the sports variant is 15mm lower all round, the distance from wheel center to top of the rear wheel arch would be 381 mm.

If you have standard suspension then I will agree that the body roll in particular is a bit undesirable - When I changed from TDI 110 Toledo to TDI 150 Sport Toledo the difference was very noticeable (and nice )

I found the sports suspension to be excellent for roadholding and lack of body roll. But such judgements are very personal, and you may want something different.

However the car will be getting a bit long in the tooth so you might want to check for worn dampers (sit on the front wing, get off suddenly, does it bounce ?) or broken springs (one side lower than the other, grating noise when turning the steering wheel)

Tyres will make a difference to steering feel as well, of course.

As noted above, rebushing the suspension will improve feel, and I'd go for the rear first as it contributes more to roll than you would think. And if you don't have sports suspension, an upgrade to the rear antiroll bar is a good idea - it will be an additional external bar, as the built-in bar is part of the rear axle beam.

 

[bojo_ri]

Than you for the comprehensive answers.
It helped a lot.

Well I'm not the first owner, and unfortunately in our country people tend not to have their cars services at the official garage for their cars, so I don't have the service/build sheet.
I will take a look at the boot sticker though and report back.

Well I can still say it is a TopSport model as the suspension definitely is firm.
I was just comparing it to my old car that had aftermarket lowering springs fitted, and since it was a small car, it handled really well. The Leon has more mass so it may feel a bit more sluggish, not that it actually is, but comparing it to a small car with a sport suspension feels less nimble. So I''m guessing it's just a subjective feeling.

So to get the better steering feel, L16YDW, would you suggest getting the TT/CupraR steering rack and lower arms fitted first?
Some pictures perhaps?

 

[bojo_ri]

Darn, can't figure out how to upload photos.
Well, anyways I managed to see the sticker in the wheel well
and the engine type is ARL, but already knew that.

Type:
1M1 766
LEON D3A/120
TOPSPL41.9 1106G

Also measured from the top of the wheel arch to the wheel center hub.
Both front and rear returned the same amount, 370mm.

The sticker is pretty damaged so the 1s or Os could be a 7, or a Q.
And then it continues down witha a list of options.
Some are really badly damaged so it's possible that the Gnn code is listed there but I didn't see it.

So as I'm getting the feel for the car somewhat, I don't know it it's relevant, but when I drive it harder, the car feels like it wants to drift, or oversteer, I guess.
It feels like it will lose grip.

To cut thing short, what would be the best bang for buck option? Rear ARB?

 

[Muttley]

370mm is the dimension expected for a Cupra R, so it sounds as though the car has been lowered, perhaps? If it is not on original springs and dampers, all bets are off. Also, if it has been lowered then the sump will be *very* close to the road, which is risky.

If it turns out that it *has* been lowered, then I'd expect more body roll - lowering the Mk.4 Golf platform increases the roll moment, because the roll center drops more than the CofG does. Cupra R has different suspension geometry to try to control this.



You need to host the photo on a separate picture site, such as Photobucket, the forum does not store photos.

 

[mattyholmz89]

Upgrade everything to cupra r spec and you will love it. Minus the rattles I get when I drive over a pebble! Sometimes I miss the soft smooth drive of my astra =(

Saying that you would probably be better and cheaper to buy an lcr doner car as I imagine it would be an expensive job

 

[bojo_ri]

So it's possible someone put in CupraR springs (and possibly shocks)?
Interesting...
Will have to investigate that further.

If that has indeed been the case, what are my next moves to improve the handling?
Like I said, the suspension is stiffer, of that I'm sure. But for that stiffness, I' kind of expected less body roll.
It just feels a bit 'off'...
Would the car end upe being less 'rollsy' if I put PD150 springs and dampers?

Are the CupraR springs stiffer or?
Because even though the CupraR is a performance model, I'd expect the diesel ones to be equally or even stiffer to adapt to more weight at the front, no?

So I'm thinking, instead of going full CupraR suspension, maybe put in PD150 stock shocks and spring and a rear ARB? Kind of makes more sense to me, no?

I'm thinking this car has had it's fair share of tinkering and bad mechanic advice to the previous owner.
The more I look into it and investigate various components, I find more stuff has had a bad 'it'll hold for a while' fix.

 

[BullPower]

I would go with Eibach Pro-Kit springs which are -30/-25 with oem or better shocks + eventually ARB
Note that TopSports are already -15mm so real lowering should be -15/-10

 

[Muttley]

References from this old thread talk about suspension geometry of the Mk.IV Golf platform and why lowering is not necessarily a good idea.

____________________________
DPJ wrote
To quote **** Shine

There are two critical geometric points to consider when discussing suspension performance: the center of gravity, and the roll center. The distance between these two points (the roll moment arm) determines the tendency of the car to roll.

The center of gravity moves with the ride height of the car. Lowering the car one inch will drop the center of gravity approximately eight tenths of an inch (only the sprung portion of the weight moves downward). The location of the roll center is a function of the suspension geometry. Lowering the body one inch on a Mk4 VW lowers the roll center approximately one and a half inches.

As a result of lowering the car 1 inch, the roll moment arm has increased more than half an inch, making it much easier for the car to roll.

When a car is allowed to roll, the resulting weight transfer decreases the available grip and keeps the car from handling to its potential.

As I understand it, the downward sloping wishbones you'll get with a lowered LC will give a much lowered roll centre.


Willie wrote
For those that don't recognize the name **** Shine he's the man when it comes to setting up the suspension on the MK4 Golf GTI.
He posts alot on VW Vortex, if you haven't been on this site....what you playting at.....get your ass on there and get searching, and know his stuff.
when setting up for the best handling on a MK4 Golf GTI, same set up as the LC, he actually raises the ride height of the front of the car, lowers the rear and fits a 28mm rear ARB. It doesn't look pretty but handles very well on the track.

_______________________________

So lowering makes the car more prone to roll. Of course the Sport suspension is lower, but I'm sure that's mostly for looks and the stiffer spring/shock combination is the key to the improvements.

Provided your springs and shocks are in good condition, I'd certainly go for a rear ARB first - as I said up above it will be an add-on, as the OEM roll bar is installed inside the rear axle beam, and would be very difficult to change.

 

[bojo_ri]

I understand.
I was definitely thinking of replacing my shocks as they have probably never been changed/refurbished or such.
since the car is lower than those 381mm, I'll investigate as to why.

I only need a bit more grip, so I'm not going to go full out with even lower and harder springs/shocks as I feel I'd lose too much ride comfort. So an ARB seems like a reasonable way forward.

Just for the sake of having the info, what ARB (front/back) do the standard PD150s have?
I know the rear one is inside the rear axle beam and I don't intend to change that, I'm just curious, that's all

Thank you all for your info and help. I'll definitely check out discussions over at VW Vortex.

 

[bojo_ri]

I thought I'd reply to my own post about the suspension rather starting a new thread.
I finally got a chance to see my 'build sheet' that was on the sticker of my maintenance book of the PD150.
Anyways, here's a link to the picture.

Can anyone tell me what 'suspension' I have?

Thank you

https://imageshack.com/i/eytVe6Spj

 

[Muttley]

I can get a lot of info out of that sheet, but the code for your suspension build is missing

It should be the last one on the sheet, next to the 0GZ code. Here's my old Toledo TDI 150 Sport sheet for comparison.

In your sheet, the R in the VIN means it was built in Martorell, Spain.

ARL = Engine code
FMH = Gearbox code, 02M 6-speed front-wheel drive

LC9Z = paint code, Black Magic Metallic

X4C	national sales program Italy		
B0J	component parts set, complying with vehicle type for Italy, various parts		
D3A	4-cyl. turbo diesel eng. 1.9 L/110 kW TDI with pump-jet injection system, EU 3base engine is T20		
G0K	6-speed manual transmission		
1AJ	anti-spin regulation (ABS/ASR/EDL) with electronic differential lock (EDL)		
8GL	alternator 120A		
J0L	battery 340 A (70 Ah)		
CK5	alloy wheels 7J x 17 "Pasaia", offset 38		
H6L	tires 225/45 R 17 91W/Y tire width restricted to 219mm		
1G1	space-saving spare wheel		
1NL	covers for alloy wheels		
8UE	radio with CD drive		
8L3	roof antenna		
8RM	eight loudspeakers (passive)		
8BB	halogen headlight for left-hand drive		
8WD	integrated front fog light		
8TF	rear fog lights, left and right		
Q4H	comfort sports seats, front		
2PX	leather trimmed sports steering wheel		
6SC	tufted trunk floor covering		
2B3	additional exterior noise suppression (hood, capsule and dash panel)		
5J7	body-colored rear spoiler (version 4)		
5SL	outer left rear view mirror: non-spherical		
5RQ	outer right rear view mirror: convex		
QG2	no possibility of activating service interval prolongation		
0GZ	emissions concept EU 3

I would be very surprised if it was not built with Sports suspension, but there is no evidence on the sheet...

 

[irf]

what tyres are on the car?

 

[bojo_ri]

Tyres are 225/45-17
Before I bought the car in question, I paid for a VIN check on the car and got a .pdf with all euipment fitted.
I remembered this morning to check it and found the G99 code.
Bit it says no info, just front suspension. Stupid.

So, a conclusion.
The PD150 should be 390mm to wherl center but it's 370mm.

So possibly someone put different springs on the car.

Now, do I put PD150 springs and then go from there or just continue with these springs?
I need a bit more respinsivness and feedback, not a race-ready car so, poly bushes all round??

 

[irf]

Tyres are 225/45-17

Yes but what are they?

 

[bojo_ri]

Eagle F1s
Some people said they're like glue, but i disnt get that feeling.
Why? No idea

 

[Muttley]

Tyres are 225/45-17
Before I bought the car in question, I paid for a VIN check on the car and got a .pdf with all euipment fitted.
I remembered this morning to check it and found the G99 code.
Bit it says no info, just front suspension. Stupid.

What you've got there is a direct translation from the VAG list, which is what I used to get the list I put up above.

But Elsawin tells me that G99 means Sports suspension, which is 15mm lower all round than standard.

So, a conclusion.
The PD150 should be 390mm to wherl center but it's 370mm.

The distances that Elsawin gives are wheel center to wheel arch, vertical. This should be 381mm front, 375mm rear for a Sports suspension setup. The Cupra R (which has different hardware at the front) has settings of 371mm front, 375mm rear. I feel this would be pushing your luck with a TDI engine, as their sumps are significantly lower than on a petrol car

So possibly someone put different springs on the car.

Now, do I put PD150 springs and then go from there or just continue with these springs?
I need a bit more respinsivness and feedback, not a race-ready car so, poly bushes all round??

It sounds almost as though someone has tried to make it conform to the LCR dimensions without installing the front suspension kit. (unless you have what looks like an Audi S3 front end suspension, that is)

Drastic lowering at the front of a conventional Mk.4 Golf platform will lead to more body roll, as the roll center drops by twice as much as the CofG does.

 

[bojo_ri]

Thank you Muttley.

So according to elsawin I can conclude that my front suspension has been tampered with.
As I said a few post back, maybe someone put lower springs on it and messed the whole thing up.
I wouldn't lower it further than it already is, no need for that.

So it just might make sense to put bushings all round.
Something like this?
Maybe add a bushing for the steering rack from powerflex and I'm set


http://www.strongflex.eu/en/audi-s3-99-03/870-full-suspension-bush-kit.html

 

[Muttley]

Rebushing with those stiffer bushes will remove some of the flex and should improve the precision of the steering response. The kit you linked to says it is only for cast wishbones, and if your suspension is like mine was on the Toledo, you have pressed steel wishbones as standard.

It does look as though your car has been lowered. I would want to put it back to the oem ride height, either with oem springs and dampers or a good aftermarket set.

Lowering has a couple of downsides apart from the ones already mentioned. Ride is compromised, because suspension travel is reduced, so the response of the car over potholes and bumps will be much less forgiving. Lowering is mainly done to make it "look like a track car" - but track cars don't have to deal with potholes, speed bumps, kerbs and stones in the road.

Also, if the dampers were not replaced at the same time as the springs, the dampers will be working with that reduced suspension travel, at the top end of their range, and bottoming out is much more likely, which will damage the dampers.

I loved the stiffness, lack of body roll and overall good road feel of my Sports suspension package on the Toledo: the only aspect that worried me was the oem lowering, done for looks to sell more cars. I now have an Altea with the Sports package - which is not lowered as standard, and performs very well