Violent juddering!

[robdf2]

Hi All.

Was driving my FR TFSI DSG last night. Went to overtake someone doing 30 along straight of national speed limit B road and as I passed the car started vibrating or juddering violently.
Best way to describe it is those speed strips on approaches to roundabouts off fast bits of road. Literally the car was shaking up and down.

I dropped to about 40mph and they lessened. It felt like my wheels were goign to come off.
Pulled up in a carpark and checked the car over. Wheels fine but the engine was making a pretty grim noise like it wasn't running on all 4 and the exahsut noise was more tinnny and mechanical.

Thought I could smell fuel. Every time I accelerated afterward it felt like it was going to go BOOM! and the engine light started flashing violently. Manged to nurse it home.

Any ideas?

First thought was the DSG gear box ie the clutches or something to do with the engine being starved of fuel on acceleration. Saying that when revving in neutral it made a funny noise but did not judder much!

H.E.L.P!

ps out of warranty by a couple of months! JOY!

what year is your car?
the reason i ask is VW have just done a recall on earlier 55,56 and some 57 plate cars to have coil packs changed foc.
so i dont think it will take long before SEAT follow suit , but knowing how tight they are maybe they wont.
and it will cover cars outside of warranty as well

 

[Knight_Rider]

Mid 57 plate mate. I havent see that recall for the coil pack... couldnt find it on the vosa website? Link anyone?

 

[dazjb69]

I'm sure euro car parts are a lot cheaper for coil packs.

 

[Knight_Rider]

Just ran another scan here was the results for the engine:

000768 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
P0300 - 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100001
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 3
Mileage: 28888 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 11:04:40

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 6048 /min
Load: 84.3 %
Speed: 79.0 km/h
Temperature: 72.0°C
Temperature: 13.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 1010.0 mbar
Voltage: 14.478 V

000771 - Cylinder 3: Misfire Detected
P0303 - 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100001
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 3
Mileage: 28888 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 11:04:40

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 6048 /min
Load: 84.3 %
Speed: 79.0 km/h
Temperature: 72.0°C
Temperature: 13.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 1010.0 mbar
Voltage: 14.478 V

Readiness: 0000 0000

What do we think gentlemen?

 

[robdf2]

Just ran another scan here was the results for the engine:

000768 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
P0300 - 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100001
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 3
Mileage: 28888 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 11:04:40

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 6048 /min
Load: 84.3 %
Speed: 79.0 km/h
Temperature: 72.0°C
Temperature: 13.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 1010.0 mbar
Voltage: 14.478 V

000771 - Cylinder 3: Misfire Detected
P0303 - 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100001
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 3
Mileage: 28888 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 11:04:40

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 6048 /min
Load: 84.3 %
Speed: 79.0 km/h
Temperature: 72.0°C
Temperature: 13.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 1010.0 mbar
Voltage: 14.478 V

Readiness: 0000 0000

What do we think gentlemen?

i would say plugs more than a coil only logged 3 times in its cycle , could be wrong

 

[cheungy]

I defin think its the coil pack but its no harm to change the plugs at the same time.

 

[Knight_Rider]

I have a feeling it's more than one cyclinder... Let me know if this is not recommended but was thinking of running at idle and then disconnecting a coil at a time and listening for any changes. My dad was pretty handy with cars and I remembered him doing this.


One other thing is that the results above are from when the car had the key turned and was not running at idle. Didn't have my garage key to open the door and didn't fancy poisoning myself just yet! (decat makes for some pretty grim fumes coming out the back end)

 

[robdf2]

I have a feeling it's more than one cyclinder... Let me know if this is not recommended but was thinking of running at idle and then disconnecting a coil at a time and listening for any changes. My dad was pretty handy with cars and I remembered him doing this.


One other thing is that the results above are from when the car had the key turned and was not running at idle. Didn't have my garage key to open the door and didn't fancy poisoning myself just yet! (decat makes for some pretty grim fumes coming out the back end)

The results you got didnt matter if it was on or not , its just whats been stored in the ECU , i think i may be wrong but a fault or potential fault has to happen so many times within a set period of time before the ECU logs it as a fault with a fault code.

Im not sure if pulling the coil pack 1 at a time will really help , best thing to do is move the coil from 1 cylinder to another , it if follows to that cylinder then you know its the coil , if it doesnt its probably not the coil.
Only move one at a time clear your fault codes then go for a spirited drive , then rescan with VCDS , hopefully it will have followed and you know the cure
if not then a bit more investigation and logging will need to be done.

 

[Knight_Rider]

so are you saying swap (3rd cyclinder) coil to 4. then go for a drive come back and then run a log to see if it now says Cylinder 4 misfire? Is it possible to just run the car on idle for a bit rather than under load? then do a scan.
Reflecting on driving it home on Sunday I reckon it muct have lost more than 50% of it's power. Making me think multiple cylinders.

Another thing that bothers me is that I parked up close next to a Candy White Leon FR in the pub car park right before it happened... Can cars get STD's?

 

[cheungy]

so are you saying swap (3rd cyclinder) coil to 4. then go for a drive come back and then run a log to see if it now says Cylinder 4 misfire? Is it possible to just run the car on idle for a bit rather than under load? then do a scan.
Reflecting on driving it home on Sunday I reckon it muct have lost more than 50% of it's power. Making me think multiple cylinders.

Another thing that bothers me is that I parked up close next to a Candy White Leon FR in the pub car park right before it happened... Can cars get STD's?

Just do it...I understand your a bit nervous either do it, if not take to a garage, no use just talking about it.

I did the exact same thing last year swapping the coil packs over and I didn't get too far until it was misfiring again (when i was monitoring all 4 cylinders on the vagcom). I had problems with cylinder 1 so I swapped 1 for 3...then 3 was misfiring so in the end it was a coil pack for me but I replaced all 4 for the red audi ones and oem plugs.

you can rev the engine a bit if you want and see if it happens on a stand still but best to drive the car for a little bit but make sure you have tools on you incase it does happen.

 

[Knight_Rider]

All I can do is talk about it dave cause I'm stuck in the office 65 miles away atm! how much were the red audi one's mate? Got a parts no?

 

[M6TT F]

be very careful pulling coilpacks out when the engine is running - they carry a lot of voltage

 

[robdf2]

so are you saying swap (3rd cyclinder) coil to 4. then go for a drive come back and then run a log to see if it now says Cylinder 4 misfire? Is it possible to just run the car on idle for a bit rather than under load? then do a scan.
Reflecting on driving it home on Sunday I reckon it muct have lost more than 50% of it's power. Making me think multiple cylinders.

Another thing that bothers me is that I parked up close next to a Candy White Leon FR in the pub car park right before it happened... Can cars get STD's?

you need t put the engine under load , so revving wont cause the missfire, unless its really bad but you wouldnt be able to drive it !

its easy to do , and the best and easiest way to do it without spending money !

 

[cheungy]

All I can do is talk about it dave cause I'm stuck in the office 65 miles away atm! how much were the red audi one's mate? Got a parts no?

Oh Sorry mate, I didn't know you were away from your Car. I didn't get the full story (my bad) anyways nothing special with the red coil packs other than being red but err I got mine from trade part specalist. I will pm you the part number if you like. (I think at the time I paid 90 in total for all 4).

indeed not a great idea changing coil packs when hot...make sure its cool then pull it out maybe after a few wiggles.

 

[Knight_Rider]

Thanks for info Rob & Dave and thanks for the PM also mate. Much appreciated.

Off work this morning so been having a tinker under the hood did as instructed and swapped them about: No Matter what I swapped it always said 'Cylinder 3'. Frequency went from 3 to 1 so ended up with this reading:

Address 01: Engine Labels: 06F-907-115-AXX.LBL
Part No SW: 1P0 907 115 HW: 8P0 907 115 B
Component: 2.0l R4/4V TFSI 0040
Coding: 030300031C070160
Shop #: WSC 13112

2 Faults Found:
000768 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
P0300 - 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100001
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 29178 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 09:37:44

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 1545 /min
Load: 14.9 %
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Temperature: 93.0°C
Temperature: 20.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 1010.0 mbar
Voltage: 14.224 V

000771 - Cylinder 3: Misfire Detected
P0303 - 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100001
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 29178 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 09:37:44

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 1545 /min
Load: 14.9 %
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Temperature: 93.0°C
Temperature: 20.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 1010.0 mbar
Voltage: 14.224 V

Readiness: 0110 0101


I deleted all DTC's then went on a run in around 40mph with 3000 rpm.
Logged another scan still the same as above in terms of cylinder and frequency.

I've took some photos (will post below) Noticed some big differences in the coils surface and the walls of the housing from which they came out of.

 

[Knight_Rider]

All 4 coil housing (note the rust/oxidation)

Also here were the differences in the coils themselves:

1 and 4 were the shiny 2 + 3 were rusty looking. In particular the 2 second from the right. (3rd from the left of the engine block) that after being wiped down was very dull and had rust on the tip.

When looking at the engine bay from the front of the car this was the order:

So could there still be something going on with the ignition coils.. or is it looking likely that it's the spark plugs? Going to have a look this afternoon at the plugs if I can find my socket.

 

[robdf2]

Hi mate,
I would say that your plugs need to be pulled and inspected.
i cant see the pictures of your coils?
it might be because im at work but from the description you have said it does sound like you need new coil packs as well.

Bad coils will kill your spark plugs , so i would recomend changing your plugs first to get you moving again and just to prove it solves the problem , if it does then change your coil packs , and hopefully that will cure your problem.
1 thing i will be interested in seeing in your pictures (when i can see them) is if there is any oil residue on the coils?
look on the bright side mate , if this was in a SEAT garage you would be charged up to £80 an hour ! plus parts
this way at least what you would just be forking out for parts and if you buy them from the correct places will even save on top of what seat would charge you.

Rob.
just 1 thing , when you cleared your fault codes did you scan again straight away with the engine off to make sure they deleted?
it its a bad fault i dont think it will clear , you need to go into the module to clear them indiviudally.
so you may still be seeing the original fault?
just something to double check mate

 

[Knight_Rider]

Hi Rob, tried now to use photobucket cause flickr wasn't showing them?
Anyway it's been updated and they're showing. In regards to the oil the only one I noticed with oil on was the one second in from the left (2nd hole from the top on the first picture)

I did check that I cleared and wiped clean so nothing was logged with the engine off.

 

[robdf2]

i can see pictures now
i think you need to pull your plugs out and have a look mate.
when were your plugs changed?
are your coil packs all the same revision?

if i were you i would put the 2 shiny packs in cylinders 2 and 3
and log again to see if the fault moves to 1 or 4

 

[Donnyboy]

So port 4, going left to right was rusty at the top, yet the coil pack was in the best condition.