Which Fuel

[dw911]

Had some of my Cupra's for over 5 years, drove them hard and they ran sweet, no engine probs, maybe that's why SEAT don't say MUST RUN ON 98 on the fuel flap or in the manual, and as they build them I think they know what they are talking about.

Some people can take hard drugs for 5 years with no immediately noticeable problems either, and your point is ?

I certainly wouldn't want drive a new cupra hard over five years on only 95 octane, but that's just my own personal opinion


That aside did you even read what I originally wrote?. I wasn't saying people should use this octane or that octane. I wasn't saying your engine is going to suddenly blow up or your going to suddenly have issue with it, far from it, I was just explaining in simple terms ( there's a far better technical explanation available in the technical documents than I could ever write ) what the car, or more importantly what the cars ecu/dme etc does to compensate if you put a lower octane fuel in your modern high performance car.

Now im sure Seat do know what they are talking about (although judging by how busy the forum is & if you read many of the threads on here, I'm sure many people probably wonder if Seat actually do know what there talking about ) ,and im certainly no expert on the minuet details of bosch engine management system or other similar systems, and don't take this the wrong way, but I'm guessing your not either, as you seemed to think you would hear this knocking I spoke of, much like you might hear a carpenter banging in large nails with a bloody big hammer, and your only reply to my comments was to say it's rubbish and you've never ever heard your car engine knocking, so you clearly don't understand it at even a basic level.

Anyway don't take my word for it, all the information about these things are out there, you even used to be able to download it as a collection of pdf technical manuals from bosch, and to be frank they know far more about it than I do, or you do, and I hazard a guess, that they probably know more than Seat, which is why you see bosch engine management systems or similar in many brands of car the world over, and why you don't see Seat branded engine management systems.


It's also well known that an engine knocking is not a good thing. Any mechanic /technician will tell you that, and to refer back to my point earlier, why do you think your car has a system in place to protect the engine from knocking ?
or are you saying that Seat knew better than every other car maker and decided to not bother having one ?

One reason seat probably doesn't say you 'must' only run your car on 98, is because there are times, maybe if your out in the sticks or touring certain parts of Europe, where higher octane fuel is simple not available, so the car has to be able to run on a lesser grade fuel, and the cars engine management system can compensate, but it's not ideal for the reasons I stated earlier.
Now I can't comment exactly on what seat say in the cupra handbook as my seat is a diesel, but I've had many high performance cars and most of them have specified a minimum of 97 octane, or above and whilst they go on to state you can use 95 octane (or even 89 octane in one case), they don't recommend it unless absolutely necessary and only if 97+ is not available, a couple even explained the reason why, although most didn't, probably because it's pretty boring stuff even for a handbook.


You also stated "that's why Seat don't say that you 'Must' run 98 on the fuel filler flap or in the manual"
But just because Seat don't say that you 'Must' ,that doesn't really mean anything, as Seat also don't say that you 'Must' use a Seat engine oil that meets X specification, they only 'Recommend' that you do, but what they really mean is you 'Must' because if you don't , they will most likely not honour an engine related warranty claim.


Anyway my original post was simply for information on what the car does if you run a different octane in it, in reply to another members post, that's all, you can believe that's how it works, or don't believe that's how it works, it's your choice. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but if your only going to just say rubbish to a post, then at least come up with a good reason why you think it's rubbish or maybe even some facts, the internal combustion engine has been around for well over a 100 years, so there's no shortage of information to be found.
More importantly though, Forum's can become boring pretty fast with out debate and if the only reply is to simply rubbish something

 

[yellowcone87]

Well that all sounds fair enough, but the original post was actually asking whether a car designed for 95 will benefit from higher octane... Not whether a cupra can run on lesser fuels.

The answer remains - yes - because ALL vag petrol engines have sensors which are able to tell the difference in the fuel and adjust accordingly, specifically because of the variety of fuel available globally, again as you pointed out. You are correct that smaller engines benefit less, but seem to forget how highly tuned a TSI is to start with. Making a small engine produce 150hp reliably isn't as easy as it sounds.

Using 95 will do absolutely no harm to them whatsoever, but if you give it a higher rated fuel - regularly - then yes, there will be a small benefit... Probably no more than 3-5%. But you're getting that for around the same price difference. Financially maybe not such a great benefit, but in terms of the way the car runs, I think its a reasonable gain.

Its up to you! But for 6p for a litre, I'll stick with the 99. Even on my 1.2.

 

[Flaw3d Genius]

Fifth Gear done a decent test on fuels years ago...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTaBngvsPrc

 

[Seastormer]

Some people can take hard drugs for 5 years with no immediately noticeable problems either, and your point is ?

I certainly wouldn't want drive a new cupra hard over five years on only 95 octane, but that's just my own personal opinion


That aside did you even read what I originally wrote?. I wasn't saying people should use this octane or that octane. I wasn't saying your engine is going to suddenly blow up or your going to suddenly have issue with it, far from it, I was just explaining in simple terms ( there's a far better technical explanation available in the technical documents than I could ever write ) what the car, or more importantly what the cars ecu/dme etc does to compensate if you put a lower octane fuel in your modern high performance car.

Now im sure Seat do know what they are talking about (although judging by how busy the forum is & if you read many of the threads on here, I'm sure many people probably wonder if Seat actually do know what there talking about ) ,and im certainly no expert on the minuet details of bosch engine management system or other similar systems, and don't take this the wrong way, but I'm guessing your not either, as you seemed to think you would hear this knocking I spoke of, much like you might hear a carpenter banging in large nails with a bloody big hammer, and your only reply to my comments was to say it's rubbish and you've never ever heard your car engine knocking, so you clearly don't understand it at even a basic level.

Anyway don't take my word for it, all the information about these things are out there, you even used to be able to download it as a collection of pdf technical manuals from bosch, and to be frank they know far more about it than I do, or you do, and I hazard a guess, that they probably know more than Seat, which is why you see bosch engine management systems or similar in many brands of car the world over, and why you don't see Seat branded engine management systems.


It's also well known that an engine knocking is not a good thing. Any mechanic /technician will tell you that, and to refer back to my point earlier, why do you think your car has a system in place to protect the engine from knocking ?
or are you saying that Seat knew better than every other car maker and decided to not bother having one ?

One reason seat probably doesn't say you 'must' only run your car on 98, is because there are times, maybe if your out in the sticks or touring certain parts of Europe, where higher octane fuel is simple not available, so the car has to be able to run on a lesser grade fuel, and the cars engine management system can compensate, but it's not ideal for the reasons I stated earlier.
Now I can't comment exactly on what seat say in the cupra handbook as my seat is a diesel, but I've had many high performance cars and most of them have specified a minimum of 97 octane, or above and whilst they go on to state you can use 95 octane (or even 89 octane in one case), they don't recommend it unless absolutely necessary and only if 97+ is not available, a couple even explained the reason why, although most didn't, probably because it's pretty boring stuff even for a handbook.


You also stated "that's why Seat don't say that you 'Must' run 98 on the fuel filler flap or in the manual"
But just because Seat don't say that you 'Must' ,that doesn't really mean anything, as Seat also don't say that you 'Must' use a Seat engine oil that meets X specification, they only 'Recommend' that you do, but what they really mean is you 'Must' because if you don't , they will most likely not honour an engine related warranty claim.


Anyway my original post was simply for information on what the car does if you run a different octane in it, in reply to another members post, that's all, you can believe that's how it works, or don't believe that's how it works, it's your choice. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but if your only going to just say rubbish to a post, then at least come up with a good reason why you think it's rubbish or maybe even some facts, the internal combustion engine has been around for well over a 100 years, so there's no shortage of information to be found.
More importantly though, Forum's can become boring pretty fast with out debate and if the only reply is to simply rubbish something

You worry too much, as I said after years of driving my Cupra's on Asda 95, with no probs and they are all still going well according to the folk that bought them after me (dealer informed) I will continue using it for my everday use, but if I ever decide to race it I may then consider it to get the full potential from the engine. But as it causes no harm and just a bit less performance (watch the vid in this thread) I will keep my cash in my pocket ready for my next Cupra.

 

[robin cur]

You worry too much, as I said after years of driving my Cupra's on Asda 95, with no probs and they are all still going well according to the folk that bought them after me (dealer informed) I will continue using it for my everday use, but if I ever decide to race it I may then consider it to get the full potential from the engine. But as it causes no harm and just a bit less performance (watch the vid in this thread) I will keep my cash in my pocket ready for my next Cupra.

+1

only do 50 miles a week.
Have a 7 seater pug 5008 for every day use Not sure why I have a cupra.
Please do not knock my pug 5008 61k coming up to to 5 years old, no rattles, no waist gate rattle no blown turbo, no condensation in the light,But gutless (Cupra any day).

 

[grayman]

Well that all sounds fair enough, but the original post was actually asking whether a car designed for 95 will benefit from higher octane... Not whether a cupra can run on lesser fuels.

The answer remains - yes - because ALL vag petrol engines have sensors which are able to tell the difference in the fuel and adjust accordingly, specifically because of the variety of fuel available globally, again as you pointed out. You are correct that smaller engines benefit less, but seem to forget how highly tuned a TSI is to start with. Making a small engine produce 150hp reliably isn't as easy as it sounds.

Using 95 will do absolutely no harm to them whatsoever, but if you give it a higher rated fuel - regularly - then yes, there will be a small benefit... Probably no more than 3-5%. But you're getting that for around the same price difference. Financially maybe not such a great benefit, but in terms of the way the car runs, I think its a reasonable gain.

Its up to you! But for 6p for a litre, I'll stick with the 99. Even on my 1.2.

As the source of the original post I have read all replies with interest. I am showing my age now, but I do remember a time when as a mechanic ( I worked for a Vauxhall main dealer in the early 80's) the test for pre-ignition was to take the car out on a road test and put your foot down at 30mph in top gear - if knocking occurred you retarded the ignition a little by turning the distributor in the appropriate direction. This was regardless of whether the strobe timing light in the workshop had shown it to be at the correct 5 degrees BTDC or whatever.

Obviously EMS has come along way since the days of Vivas and Chevettes (although I read with interest that Vauxhall's new super mini will be called the Viva) and the engines are far more efficient - although I have to admit I sometimes miss the simplicity of Stromberg and SU carbs.

It may be a while before I conclude 95 or 98 one way or another - I have had the car 2 weeks now and have only covered 165 miles!

 

[dw911]

You worry too much, as I said after years of driving my Cupra's on Asda 95, with no probs and they are all still going well according to the folk that bought them after me (dealer informed) I will continue using it for my everday use, but if I ever decide to race it I may then consider it to get the full potential from the engine. But as it causes no harm and just a bit less performance (watch the vid in this thread) I will keep my cash in my pocket ready for my next Cupra.

Each to their own, I just find it ironic that you would go to all the trouble to shut down the stop start system and let the engine stay running if the turbo is hot (post 39, cupra 280 blown engine thread)
yet your happy to run 95 octane in it all the time and let the engine knock evertime it attempts to unsuccessfully bring the system back to its optimum settings, all just to save a few pennies
just seems a strange contradiction

 

[Seastormer]

Each to their own, I just find it ironic that you would go to all the trouble to shut down the stop start system and let the engine stay running if the turbo is hot (post 39, cupra 280 blown engine thread)
yet your happy to run 95 octane in it all the time and let the engine knock evertime it attempts to unsuccessfully bring the system back to its optimum settings, all just to save a few pennies
just seems a strange contradiction

Because you can damage the car if turned off when hot, but running the car on 95 doesn't , are you some kind of idiot. Anyway do what you want and I will do what the handbook says and the same as I have for years,

 

[dw911]

Because you can damage the car if turned off when hot, but running the car on 95 doesn't , are you some kind of idiot. Anyway do what you want and I will do what the handbook says and the same as I have for years,

So your saying, knocking is perfect ok for an engine and even a good thing maybe? As I said its your look out, but you obviously don't see the irony in your two different actions and inactions regarding looking after your engine

I can say with certainly that you won't damage your engine by turning it off with a hot turbo, which is what you say will happen, there's a very very slim possibility you might possibly end up with carbonised oil build up on the turbo shaft bearing oil seals, which could very slowly cause wear on the shaft bearings and oil seals.
An issue on 1980's and early 90's era turbo charged cars, but hardly an issue today on modern cars, or as someone else pointed out, if it was seat or even Ferrari would hardly fit stop start system on cars with turbos, although strangely you seemed to think the other member Simonali's comments were rubbish also as it didn't agree with your expert opinion

Oblivious seat etc know better, but only when it suits what you think is correct

I'm not sure how you arrived at the fact that I'm some sort of idiot, but it's pretty common for stupid people to revert to insults like idiot, when they run out of sensible things to say or haven't a clue what they are talking about

 

[MrStroppy]

Fifth Gear done a decent test on fuels years ago...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTaBngvsPrc

"V-Power " gimmy gimmy gimmy lol

 

[Seastormer]

So your saying, knocking is perfect ok for an engine and even a good thing maybe? As I said its your look out, but you obviously don't see the irony in your two different actions and inactions regarding looking after your engine

I can say with certainly that you won't damage your engine by turning it off with a hot turbo, which is what you say will happen, there's a very very slim possibility you might possibly end up with carbonised oil build up on the turbo shaft bearing oil seals, which could very slowly cause wear on the shaft bearings and oil seals.
An issue on 1980's and early 90's era turbo charged cars, but hardly an issue today on modern cars, or as someone else pointed out, if it was seat or even Ferrari would hardly fit stop start system on cars with turbos, although strangely you seemed to think the other member Simonali's comments were rubbish also as it didn't agree with your expert opinion

Oblivious seat etc know better, but only when it suits what you think is correct

I'm not sure how you arrived at the fact that I'm some sort of idiot, but it's pretty common for stupid people to revert to insults like idiot, when they run out of sensible things to say or haven't a clue what they are talking about

You are the one saying running 95 will damage the car not SEAT, try reading the handbook, they state that running 91 in an emergency will need the car to be used lightly and only till the proper 95/98 fuel is used. No mention of any problems/careful driving then needed, also the Cupra is sold in countries that don't have 98 so how does that work. Also it is SEAT who state that you should idle the Cupra when the turbo is hot so I am following their advice on both issues not when it suits me.

 

[Crafoo]

I've not read all this so apologies if I've missed something but, what has the stop start function got to do with anything regarding warm down on turbo cars? Cutting the engine for 20 seconds while you're at the lights is not the same as killing the engine and leaving the car to completely cool down after a stint of enthusiastic driving, hence why it's been mentioned (in the owners manual i believe?) that a warm down after exuberant driving is recommended.

Sent from my G3 using Tuppytalk

 

[Seastormer]

I've not read all this so apologies if I've missed something but, what has the stop start function got to do with anything regarding warm down on turbo cars? Cutting the engine for 20 seconds while you're at the lights is not the same as killing the engine and leaving the car to completely cool down after a stint of enthusiastic driving, hence why it's been mentioned (in the owners manual i believe?) that a warm down after exuberant driving is recommended.

Sent from my G3 using Tuppytalk

Well said

Some folk on here have even switched off the stop/start permanently as they believe that the turbo suffers if it cuts in. And yet there are others who think you don't even have to let it cool down after a long hard drive like the manual says, and tell me that SEAT and myself are wrong for doing this.

 

[dw911]

You are the one saying running 95 will damage the car not SEAT, try reading the handbook, they state that running 91 in an emergency will need the car to be used lightly and only till the proper 95/98 fuel is used. No mention of any problems/careful driving then needed, also the Cupra is sold in countries that don't have 98 so how does that work. Also it is SEAT who state that you should idle the Cupra when the turbo is hot so I am following their advice on both issues not when it suits me.

I said nothing of the sort, i simply explained in my original post what a car does to compensate when you run on a lower octane ie it's run on 98 then you run it on 95, that was all.
But u seemed to think it was all rubbish.
I also didn't say anywhere in my posts that it will damage your engine, I just politely suggested in a later reply that its probably not ideal long term to purposely do something that is likely to make your engine knock, * but as I said before that's just my opinion. *

But it is a well researched and documented fact that knocking is detrimental to an engine and will cause damage which can range anywhere from fairly insignificant damage to catastrophic engine failure in extreme cases


I mentioned earlier what the manual said regarding fuel so I'm not sure which bit you don't understand, and unlike your quote from the manual that you wrote above, I had no need to change the text to make what I had said before sound correct, as you seemed to have done.

What it actually says in the manual is. And I quote

* "We 'Seat' Recommend you use super plus 98, *IF this is NOT available:super 95 octane petrol, with a slight decrease in power"

So they recommend 98, not 95, but 98 which bit of "seat recommend 98" did you not understand

and why do u think they mention a slight decrease in power on 95? it's not hard the information is there in front of you if you bothered to read it, just to help you out a bit more, *the octane rating of fuel describes the fuels resistance to engine knock


Regarding your above comment

* *"cupra is sold in other countries that dont have 98, how does that work"

A very good question


Simple, they don't just send western European market/spec Cupra's over to wherever and hope they don't detonate on 89 octane or similar (in the case of the north American market)*

The ecu's, systems etc are programmed different to take account of the fuel octane rating available in that particular country, there's a bit more to it than that *but you hopefully get the idea and it's the reason why you will normally see European car specifications I.e bhp figures are a lot lower in places like north America, than they are on the equivalent cars in Britain or Europe.



Anyway, I do like this comment you purported to have taken from your Seat manual.

* * *"Also it is SEAT who STATE that you should idle the Cupra when the turbo is hot so I am following their advice on both issues not when it suits me"


Obviously its clearly not written by seat in the mk3 manual, *Disney maybe, you definitely, *but not Seat, *but I guess you thought you'd make something up to validate what your saying, *good plan, maybe, if this wasn't the seat leon mk3 forum and the good bet that we all have the leon manual.

As it says nothing in there about *"you should idle the cupra when the turbo is hot" *in the manual, it doesn't even mention hot turbos, which seems to be the whole basis for your argument.


You even tried to use some of your 'Seat state that you should idle the cupra when the turbo is hot' creative bit of manual writing to suggest in another thread, that it could well be the reason that the turbo charger on some unfortunate members 280 cupra broke up, pretty underhand if you ask me, especially when someone's looking for genuine advice on a serious issue.

Take the time to read the small bit it mentions in the handbook about heat build up (applies for all leons) and what it actually says, not what you'd like it to say, research the reason behind it and look at the engine technical drawings for the cupra especially the turbo and it's cooling system and what happens when you turn the car off with a hot turbo, then you'll hopefully understand why it says what it does in the book and doesn't mention anything about turbo cooling on idle as an older manual would have









*

 

[Seastormer]

I said nothing of the sort, i simply explained in my original post what a car does to compensate when you run on a lower octane ie it's run on 98 then you run it on 95, that was all.
But u seemed to think it was all rubbish.
I also didn't say anywhere in my posts that it will damage your engine, I just politely suggested in a later reply that its probably not ideal long term to purposely do something that is likely to make your engine knock, * but as I said before that's just my opinion. *

But it is a well researched and documented fact that knocking is detrimental to an engine and will cause damage which can range anywhere from fairly insignificant damage to catastrophic engine failure in extreme cases


I mentioned earlier what the manual said regarding fuel so I'm not sure which bit you don't understand, and unlike your quote from the manual that you wrote above, I had no need to change the text to make what I had said before sound correct, as you seemed to have done.

What it actually says in the manual is. And I quote

* "We 'Seat' Recommend you use super plus 98, *IF this is NOT available:super 95 octane petrol, with a slight decrease in power"

So they recommend 98, not 95, but 98 which bit of "seat recommend 98" did you not understand

and why do u think they mention a slight decrease in power on 95? it's not hard the information is there in front of you if you bothered to read it, just to help you out a bit more, *the octane rating of fuel describes the fuels resistance to engine knock


Regarding your above comment

* *"cupra is sold in other countries that dont have 98, how does that work"

A very good question


Simple, they don't just send western European market/spec Cupra's over to wherever and hope they don't detonate on 89 octane or similar (in the case of the north American market)*

The ecu's, systems etc are programmed different to take account of the fuel octane rating available in that particular country, there's a bit more to it than that *but you hopefully get the idea and it's the reason why you will normally see European car specifications I.e bhp figures are a lot lower in places like north America, than they are on the equivalent cars in Britain or Europe.



Anyway, I do like this comment you purported to have taken from your Seat manual.

* * *"Also it is SEAT who STATE that you should idle the Cupra when the turbo is hot so I am following their advice on both issues not when it suits me"


Obviously its clearly not written by seat in the mk3 manual, *Disney maybe, you definitely, *but not Seat, *but I guess you thought you'd make something up to validate what your saying, *good plan, maybe, if this wasn't the seat leon mk3 forum and the good bet that we all have the leon manual.

As it says nothing in there about *"you should idle the cupra when the turbo is hot" *in the manual, it doesn't even mention hot turbos, which seems to be the whole basis for your argument.


You even tried to use some of your 'Seat state that you should idle the cupra when the turbo is hot' creative bit of manual writing to suggest in another thread, that it could well be the reason that the turbo charger on some unfortunate members 280 cupra broke up, pretty underhand if you ask me, especially when someone's looking for genuine advice on a serious issue.

Take the time to read the small bit it mentions in the handbook about heat build up (applies for all leons) and what it actually says, not what you'd like it to say, research the reason behind it and look at the engine technical drawings for the cupra especially the turbo and it's cooling system and what happens when you turn the car off with a hot turbo, then you'll hopefully understand why it says what it does in the book and doesn't mention anything about turbo cooling on idle as an older manual would have









*

You ask why I called you an idiot, if you look back I actually asked the question "are you some kind of an idiot" so you to can misread things also. Anyway before you got on your high horse and started writing paragraphs of info about how I run my car, you originally said that running my car on 95 was not good for the engine and it was to that remark I said rubbish, and now you claim you did not say it will damage my engine, yet in this current post you infer it again. I said that SEAT do not mention any problems/or taking it easy with 95 as they do with 91, so that would mean that the only diff with 95 to 98 is the performance, so nowhere do they say it is not reccommended. And I was not reading the manual at the time of writing so I maybe was not word perfect, but the idea was there.

 

[dw911]

You ask why I called you an idiot, if you look back I actually asked the question "are you some kind of an idiot" so you to can misread things also. Anyway before you got on your high horse and started writing paragraphs of info about how I run my car, you originally said that running my car on 95 was not good for the engine and it was to that remark I said rubbish, and now you claim you did not say it will damage my engine, yet in this current post you infer it again. I said that SEAT do not mention any problems/or taking it easy with 95 as they do with 91, so that would mean that the only diff with 95 to 98 is the performance, so nowhere do they say it is not reccommended. And I was not reading the manual at the time of writing so I maybe was not word perfect, but the idea was there.

No just looked back at my last post , my only remark was to say in my opinion it's not good for the engine
I then quoted a commonly know fact regarding engine knocking( googgle it)

"Not Word perfect, I was not reading the manual at the time", really, funny that, you quoted it as a fact, you even argued about it with another member in another post
More synicall people might have though u were just making it up just to fit your argument, which would answer your question "are you some sort of idiot" I think you just answered that,as the only idiot here would be the one who seems to feel the need to relie on stuff they made up in their head to prove their point

Sorry but was happy to debate with when you questioned what I said, I like a good debate, but you seemed to have offered nothing to back up your claim that what I said was rubbish, and you totally lost all credibility once you started making stuff up to try and prove your points

 

[Seastormer]

No just looked back at my last post , my only remark was to say in my opinion it's not good for the engine
I then quoted a commonly know fact regarding engine knocking( googgle it)

"Not Word perfect, I was not reading the manual at the time", really, funny that, you quoted it as a fact, you even argued about it with another member in another post
More synicall people might have though u were just making it up just to fit your argument, which would answer your question "are you some sort of idiot" I think you just answered that,as the only idiot here would be the one who seems to feel the need to relie on stuff they made up in their head to prove their point

Sorry but was happy to debate with when you questioned what I said, I like a good debate, but you seemed to have offered nothing to back up your claim that what I said was rubbish, and you totally lost all credibility once you started making stuff up to try and prove your points

Blah, blah, blah, you must be retired or something to spend so much time writing this drivel, you have worn me down I can't be arsed with you any longer so rabbit on till your hearts content, but to me, you now don't exist.

 

[dw911]

Blah, blah, blah, you must be retired or something to spend so much time writing this drivel, you have worn me down I can't be arsed with you any longer so rabbit on till your hearts content, but to me, you now don't exist.

I think what you really mean is your credibility was shot, you offered nothing in the way of genuine facts to back up what you were saying, and you'll console yourself by thinking I'm old and senile and it's all drivel and leave it at that.

But hey at the end of the day it's just a car forum, it's nothing personal

 

[bluenose172]

I don't know how someone can get so pent up and vitriolic about how some stranger on a forum decides to run their car. Carry on and keep calm.....

 

[Blunteh]

Apologies in advance