Andyf12

Guest
Hi folks, I was wondering if anyone has experienced any problems with Pinking on a 1.2. My car is pinking badly when under load and the dealer agrees with me but can't seem to fix it. It's been in three times and each time they seem unable to find anything. I've been trying to explain the fact that it is probably related to the knock sensor or airflow sensor and that it won't necessarily show on their VAGCOM (or whatever it's called) but they don't seem to want to take advice from me on what to check! I've registered the fault with Seat UK in case it damages my engine as my warranty is about to expire. It's going back again in three weeks at which point they will investigate the sensor outputs at my request. Anyway, I'd love to know if anyone else has had a problem like this and what the outcome was? Can anyone offer any advice, thanks loads.

Andy
 
Pinking / Knocking

Hiya,

Pinking is a rattling noise coming from the combustion chamber. Could be called knocking or pre-ignition. It is basically caused by the explosion taking place in the combustion chamber too early. This causes a massive increase in cylinder pressure as the cylinder tries to compress the already ignited mixture. This can lead to engine damage if not corrected. The knock sensor is mounted to the block and detects the pre-ignition by the vibration that it causes. It tells the ECU to retard the timing to prevent the pinking and has a very fast reaction time. The ECU also needs info from other sensors so that it can control the combustion properly........

If I drive on a flat road at 2k revs in 5th then floor the throttle it makes a right pinking racket as the dealer has agreed. My mates 1.2 doesn't, my other mates 1.2 polo doesn't and mine didn't up until recently.

Can anyone try it on their 1.2 and tell me what happens?? 2k RPM, 5th gear and floor it. Listen for a nastly fairly high pitched rattling noise.

Enjoying driving the wife comedy Cinquecento to brighten up my day! Boy does that thing lean!
 
Know I understand. Doesnt sound good at all but it seems liek you are on the right track with telling them to check the sensors!
 
pinking or pinging can be the ignition too far advanced as you say but can also be weak fuel mixture

In high mileage engines you can get a buildup of shite on the tops of the pistons that glows red hot under load and this ignites the fuel before the spark is called for

in the old days it would have been sorted with a timing strobe and a slight twist of the dizzy but these days the dealers need to know what they are up to, be able to sort it

my bet would be the knock sensor as you say or the crank sensor or a dodgy coil pack or heaven forbid your timing chain has jumped a tooth :ban:

be very careful with severe pinging as it can burn holes in pistons or melt valve seats :ban:
 
Pinking is usually caused by detonation, rather than pre-ignition. People often confuse the two things, but they are actually different and caused by slightly different things.

Pre-ignition, as nathwarr says, is caused by a red-hot bit of carbon or perhaps an overheated spark plug which causes the fuel mixture to ignite before the spark.

Detonation is different. If the mixture is wrong, or if the charge pressure is too high (even on a normally aspirated engine - like when you've got your foot flat down in top gear), then the mixture can "explode" rather than "burn". In a normal combustion event, the flame front should move smoothly across the combustion chamber, spreading out gradually from the spark plug. The cylinder pressure should rise smoothly and gradually, only reaching its peak when the piston is already on its way back down. During detonation, you get pockets of mixture that explode suddenly, so you don't get a nice gradual burn and the combustion pressure rises far too quickly. But the key thing is that detonation occurs after the spark has ignited the mixture.

The "pinging" noise in detonation is caused by a shock wave that bounces off the cylinder walls, setting up a standing wave. In smaller engines the frequency of this wave is audible as a "tinkly" noise, but in big engines the sound is lower (because the cylinders are bigger) and tends to get drowned out by the rest of the engine noise.

Light detonation is nothing to worry unduly about - in fact many engines are intended to run with a little bit of detonation. If it gets bad then it can lead to overheating, but is unlikely to damage the engine quickly (though it's worth getting it sorted if it's bad enough to hear it). Pre-ignition, on the other hand, is always BAD. Your engine will die very rapidly. The fact that your engine is still running means that you don't have pre-ignition.
 
mine does it a bit under 2k in 3rd, 4th and 5th but i don change gear far too early sometimes, keep it at around 2 and a half k and it should go....that's what happens with mine anyway :)
 
Thanks for the info, I thought it was the same thing but now I know better!

It is very audible when you labour the engine and that's what concerns me. If it had been like it from new then I wouldn't be so worried but something is obviously slightly out of spec somewhere to cause it.

I've been driving as danmay suggests and it's ok but when my wife drives she tends to labour it more and that's when it is slightly concerning.

However, it puts my mind at rest to know it is likely to be occuring after ignition and so shouldn't cause any serious damage.


Cheers folks :p




Pinking is usually caused by detonation, rather than pre-ignition. People often confuse the two things, but they are actually different and caused by slightly different things.

Pre-ignition, as nathwarr says, is caused by a red-hot bit of carbon or perhaps an overheated spark plug which causes the fuel mixture to ignite before the spark.

Detonation is different. If the mixture is wrong, or if the charge pressure is too high (even on a normally aspirated engine - like when you've got your foot flat down in top gear), then the mixture can "explode" rather than "burn". In a normal combustion event, the flame front should move smoothly across the combustion chamber, spreading out gradually from the spark plug. The cylinder pressure should rise smoothly and gradually, only reaching its peak when the piston is already on its way back down. During detonation, you get pockets of mixture that explode suddenly, so you don't get a nice gradual burn and the combustion pressure rises far too quickly. But the key thing is that detonation occurs after the spark has ignited the mixture.

The "pinging" noise in detonation is caused by a shock wave that bounces off the cylinder walls, setting up a standing wave. In smaller engines the frequency of this wave is audible as a "tinkly" noise, but in big engines the sound is lower (because the cylinders are bigger) and tends to get drowned out by the rest of the engine noise.

Light detonation is nothing to worry unduly about - in fact many engines are intended to run with a little bit of detonation. If it gets bad then it can lead to overheating, but is unlikely to damage the engine quickly (though it's worth getting it sorted if it's bad enough to hear it). Pre-ignition, on the other hand, is always BAD. Your engine will die very rapidly. The fact that your engine is still running means that you don't have pre-ignition.
 
Hey David,

Have you got any suggestions as to a possible cause of the detonation? I'd like to go armed to the dealer if poss. Ta.

Andy
 
Pinking is usually caused by detonation, rather than pre-ignition. People often confuse the two things, but they are actually different and caused by slightly different things.

Pre-ignition, as nathwarr says, is caused by a red-hot bit of carbon or perhaps an overheated spark plug which causes the fuel mixture to ignite before the spark.

Detonation is different. If the mixture is wrong, or if the charge pressure is too high (even on a normally aspirated engine - like when you've got your foot flat down in top gear), then the mixture can "explode" rather than "burn". In a normal combustion event, the flame front should move smoothly across the combustion chamber, spreading out gradually from the spark plug. The cylinder pressure should rise smoothly and gradually, only reaching its peak when the piston is already on its way back down. During detonation, you get pockets of mixture that explode suddenly, so you don't get a nice gradual burn and the combustion pressure rises far too quickly. But the key thing is that detonation occurs after the spark has ignited the mixture.

The "pinging" noise in detonation is caused by a shock wave that bounces off the cylinder walls, setting up a standing wave. In smaller engines the frequency of this wave is audible as a "tinkly" noise, but in big engines the sound is lower (because the cylinders are bigger) and tends to get drowned out by the rest of the engine noise.

Light detonation is nothing to worry unduly about - in fact many engines are intended to run with a little bit of detonation. If it gets bad then it can lead to overheating, but is unlikely to damage the engine quickly (though it's worth getting it sorted if it's bad enough to hear it). Pre-ignition, on the other hand, is always BAD. Your engine will die very rapidly. The fact that your engine is still running means that you don't have pre-ignition.


a good explanation there [B)]


let us know what sorts the problem out won't ya Andyf12
 
sounds like a problem i had with mine.

mine started makin noises, and the next thing, it cost me 1100.

the timing chain had gone. smashed everything in its way, does the car bounce about a bit more than normal to wen then engine is on tickover?
 
Hi Cotton,

What do you mean by 'bounce around'? I've noticed that when driving on low throttle inputs it seems to hesitate and stutter slightly.

??

Andy
 
I wonder how the ECU controls ignition timing on modern engines now.

IE - does it just used fixed timing vales from a map, or does it try and run as far advanced as it can until the knock sensor tells it when to stop ?

Bit of a shame these days when techs can't (or won't) diagnose things unless a fault shows up.

Haven't heard an engine pinking for years, like Nath says it was usually caused by turning the distributor slightly too far, or getting your points/dwell angle way out. Thankfully things have moved on since then - wonder how many other people have got old strobe lights and dwell angle meters gathering dust in the garage.....
 
i mean like, the car engine doesnt run smooth normaly becouse its a 3 cylinder.

when you got your car in nutral, does the engine move about more like, the car will shake a bit. like its missfiring. that how mine started. and then it just wunt start wen i limped it back home from down the road
 
Right everyone, the problem is solved at last. It's taken three dealers and plenty of "nothing wrong with it mate" comments but I have persisted. The dealer had the car for 3 weeks and finally they found the problem.

It was the water pump! It sounded exactly like engine pinking and that is why it took so long to find, completely the wrong track!

The technician at the dealer in Aylesbury was very good and did a lot of work on the car replacing another item under warranty that he found whilst investigating. Under load the water pump and belt tensioner were making the rattling noise and this went away with higher revs.

Anyhow, I've driven it home happy now knowing that the warranty expires tomorrow!

So the morale of the story is persistance and insistance if you know something is not right. Plus if you have their courtesy car then they can't have it back until you are satisfied!

Merry Christmas...ho ho ho and thanks for your advice guys! It foxed us all!

:D
 
Sounds like I have a similar issue

Did this noise happen only at low revs and only really when the engine is cold?
I've got an odd metallic clinking that only seems to happen under these conditions, but has gotten louder of late and is rather disturbing on startup. I've had the bonnet up and it sounds to me to be coming from the roller assembly.
Any help appreciated.
L