induction kit vs. cone filter

[12ky12]

Hi guys,

I have the 1.4 twincharged cupra bocanegra and need swayed on which air filter to go for at first I was looking at the itg induction kit but then I thought about a silicon adapter with a huge K&N cone filter (102mm inlet, 240mm+) which would you guys recommend ? The cone filter would be the cheaper option.

Cheers

 

[Pyrres]

Neither. Just leave it as is and you get the best power and you don't get other issues that come with those filters.

Sent from my HTC One_M8

 

[12ky12]

nether ? the standard box is very restrictive, it has been shown that the itg induction kit can give you an extra 15 bhp ? better airflow also suggests better mpg. also what do you mean by issues ?

 

[Wee-nemo]

Aftermarket intakes COULD make you more bhp if you remapped after fitting, as it stands the ECU is set up for the amount of airflow allowed through the airbox, allowing more air into the engine may effectively lean out the fuel mixture beyond what the car expects, which causes it to reduce fuelling to correct the mix and leading to reduced power.

It's pretty well documented in modern cars, yes a remap would probably help reprogram the ECU to understand the airflow rates provided by a larger intake but with a non-standard intake alone you're probably going to do more harm than good.

 

[12ky12]

Aftermarket intakes COULD make you more bhp if you remapped after fitting, as it stands the ECU is set up for the amount of airflow allowed through the airbox, allowing more air into the engine may effectively lean out the fuel mixture beyond what the car expects, which causes it to reduce fuelling to correct the mix and leading to reduced power.

It's pretty well documented in modern cars, yes a remap would probably help reprogram the ECU to understand the airflow rates provided by a larger intake but with a non-standard intake alone you're probably going to do more harm than good.

aww okay are u suggesting that you need to remap it if upgrading the intake ?

 

[Pyrres]

Actually in stock mechanical form the engine wont get any extra bhp from a filter (of course there are exceptions to this rule). In many cars the stock intake is much better than aftermarket ones. For example its better at filtering, gets in most cases colder intake air and has ram air effect and by having those gets more bhp, won't ruin maf-sensor and wont have problems with extreme weathers etc. Only good thing about the aftermarket ones is the sound and possibly the looks. If its power you want you just better upgrade the software.

And the extra 15hp, how has been it been shown and by whom? Many vags make more power than specs say, my last one had extra 40nm of torque over the stock specs and 82nm over the stock specs after a remap.

Sent from my HTC One_M8

 

[12ky12]

Actually in stock mechanical form the engine wont get any extra bhp from a filter (of course there are exceptions to this rule). In many cars the stock intake is much better than aftermarket ones. For example its better at filtering, gets in most cases colder intake air and has ram air effect and by having those gets more bhp, won't ruin maf-sensor and wont have problems with extreme weathers etc. Only good thing about the aftermarket ones is the sound and possibly the looks. If its power you want you just better upgrade the software.

And the extra 15hp, how has been it been shown and by whom? Many vags make more power than specs say, my last one had extra 40nm of torque over the stock specs and 82nm over the stock specs after a remap.

Sent from my HTC One_M8

thanks for the help mate, will keep the induction for when i get stage 2 revo

 

[pedro1989]

Aftermarket intakes COULD make you more bhp if you remapped after fitting, as it stands the ECU is set up for the amount of airflow allowed through the airbox, allowing more air into the engine may effectively lean out the fuel mixture beyond what the car expects, which causes it to reduce fuelling to correct the mix and leading to reduced power.

It's pretty well documented in modern cars, yes a remap would probably help reprogram the ECU to understand the airflow rates provided by a larger intake but with a non-standard intake alone you're probably going to do more harm than good.

I don't usually pipe up in discussions like this but the above thought process always confused me... Do these thoughts derive from the old carb (or manual diesel pump) days?

I could be wrong but don't pretty much all modern engines have MAF's? So... The ECU will add/subtract fuel adjustments as it sees fit in relation to the amount of air that it has metered through.

When the car realises it's taking more air then it will add fuel, not take it away and lean it out more? Unless it's programmed to destroy the engine.

Obviously things change if you start changing the MAF sizes, then the ECU will be making incorrect calculations unless it remapped to suit the MAF size. But from just changing the air filter and keeping the original MAF then surely small changes due to an air filter change will be compensated (ECU will add a little more fuel) and therefore an (albeit very small) increase in power?

Let me know if I'm the one getting the wrong end of the stick.

 

[12ky12]

I don't usually pipe up in discussions like this but the above thought process always confused me... Do these thoughts derive from the old carb (or manual diesel pump) days?

I could be wrong but don't pretty much all modern engines have MAF's? So... The ECU will add/subtract fuel adjustments as it sees fit in relation to the amount of air that it has metered through.

When the car realises it's taking more air then it will add fuel, not take it away and lean it out more? Unless it's programmed to destroy the engine.

Obviously things change if you start changing the MAF sizes, then the ECU will be making incorrect calculations unless it remapped to suit the MAF size. But from just changing the air filter and keeping the original MAF then surely small changes due to an air filter change will be compensated (ECU will add a little more fuel) and therefore an (albeit very small) increase in power?

Let me know if I'm the one getting the wrong end of the stick.

hope your correct although i am not sure myself i would have liked to fit the induction kit without mapping

 

[Pyrres]

I don't usually pipe up in discussions like this but the above thought process always confused me... Do these thoughts derive from the old carb (or manual diesel pump) days?

I could be wrong but don't pretty much all modern engines have MAF's? So... The ECU will add/subtract fuel adjustments as it sees fit in relation to the amount of air that it has metered through.

When the car realises it's taking more air then it will add fuel, not take it away and lean it out more? Unless it's programmed to destroy the engine.

Obviously things change if you start changing the MAF sizes, then the ECU will be making incorrect calculations unless it remapped to suit the MAF size. But from just changing the air filter and keeping the original MAF then surely small changes due to an air filter change will be compensated (ECU will add a little more fuel) and therefore an (albeit very small) increase in power?

Let me know if I'm the one getting the wrong end of the stick.

Well some times the tolerances for corrections are not wide enough to comoensate for example a cold morning start etc. And sometimes non stock intakes might break the maf sebsor or confuse it because of the air flow differences and worse filtering.

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[pedro1989]

Well some times the tolerances for corrections are not wide enough to comoensate for example a cold morning start etc. And sometimes non stock intakes might break the maf sebsor or confuse it because of the air flow differences and worse filtering.

Sent from my HTC One_M8

Indeed, but you're only going to get a very small amount of extra air in so I think the tolerances would be easily within range. Obviously if you get it remapped you will further benefit as the tolerances then will be better suited.

As for the filtration issue, I totally agree with that. That is the only reason I run the standard air filter on my GSXR - Yes a K&N/BMC may gain me an extra 1hp but the pitiful filtration levels don't make up for it.

I'm not sure what the filtration levels are like comparing standard vs. ITG etc. So I can't comment on that really.

Edit to add - If the ECU doesn't compensate fuel for the MAF readings, what is the point in having the air metered at all? They may as well be SD mapped...

 

[Pyrres]

Well sometimes manufacturers make quite close tolerances and if filter is different enought and conditions are extreme you might run out of injector capacity or software tolerance as it is is designed to be used with stock filter. And even the intake length can make a difference with air turbulence etc.

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[pedro1989]

Well sometimes manufacturers make quite close tolerances and if filter is different enought and conditions are extreme you might run out of injector capacity or software tolerance as it is is designed to be used with stock filter. And even the intake length can make a difference with air turbulence etc.

Sent from my HTC One_M8

Injector capacity - Due to an air filter change? I seriously doubt it. I don't think injector capacity running close to 100% out of the factory would be good for reliability. If an air filter change alone gave a significant (tens of horsepower) increase then yes I guess so. But it simply won't.

Software tolerances - Plausible. But... I doubt it. I don't think an aftermarket filter could let enough air past in comparison to a standard filter to make a big enough difference. There's probably more difference between going up a (high) mountain and being at sea level.

It was just some thoughts as I've seen this kind of thing come up before and it seems flawed considering what the MAF and ECU does together. But it is understandable on carbs/manual pump/SD maps where it can't change the fuelling (carbs can very, very slightly I guess).

If it is well documented it would be nice to see any example of it - I purely ask for an understanding, not to have a go about it.

 

[Pyrres]

Those things came up and to my knowledge when talking about american cars. Those have much lower hp/l ratio and a simple air filter change could need a remap and you got quite a lot more extra bhp. Of course this was long time ago but if I remember correctly the car in question was some form of Mustang with a V8. And I have heard of few cars that had problems with bad stock software even when stock.

Oh and of course I have had my share of problems with cone filters with my ex ST170 that broke the maf and had quite a lot of problems with mixtures even with a new maf and those went away just by changing back to stock filter and airbox.

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[pedro1989]

Hmm, maybe that is down to the very large capacity, there's a lot of improvement to be had there so I guess you could see significant results on cars like that. 4.0 engines and the likes making 200hp (or less even) is crazy!

I've heard mixed things on MAF's breaking, people blaming the oil/less filtration/not the air filters fault it's just it's come to the end of it's life etc. But interesting to see issues went away when you put it back to standard.

Possibly there was another underlying issue making it run lean(er) that couldn't be compensated by the MAF and then being more pronounced with the air filter? I don't know, food for thought

 

[Pyrres]

Well in my case it was clear. Maf was oily and dirty and not that old. New maf didn't help but stock filterbox and maf cleaning helped. Of course I don't know cars whole history so difficult to say but the Ford garage said that its quite common to have problems with those kinds of filters and same thing was said in every shop I worked. Of course I mainly worked vags so not that much aftermarket parts in those.

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[Big-Pete]

ive had my aftermarket cone filter on since june last year, 0 problems, 100% more turbo/charger noise plus a little more horse power.

ive had 0 adverse effects of it aswell.

standard box is ****.

 

[Pyrres]

ive had my aftermarket cone filter on since june last year, 0 problems, 100% more turbo/charger noise plus a little more horse power.

ive had 0 adverse effects of it aswell.

standard box is ****.

So noise equals hp? You would never notice difference of a few horses in a car that anything over 80hp. I believe the increase when I see a proper dyno slip.

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[pedro1989]

This has taken me all of less than a minute to find.

It's American, not our cars, done 2 years ago and I've not read it thoroughly.

It is however, independent, back-to-back dyno testing, no mods (as far as my quick read went) but is only panel filters. I would think (until heat soak becomes an issue depending on placement) a cone would be same/better...

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13245

Just an example so try not to flame it too much.

 

[Big-Pete]

So noise equals hp? You would never notice difference of a few horses in a car that anything over 80hp. I believe the increase when I see a proper dyno slip.

Sent from my HTC One_M8

not a problem

193 bhp and 203ftlbs. just had my aftermarket air filter installed.

just a tad diffrent to the 180/180 its sposed to be.

so in this case noise=power