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Cambelt question
- Thread starter RgB_Cupra
- Start date
The waterpump is on the opposite side of the engine to the timing belt and is operated by a different belt from the cam shaft so it isn't essetial to have it done at the same time. I personally wouldn't bother if it hasn't got any issues, but if you can get it bundled in with the belt change at a good price then it may be worth doing.
Maybe consider this, before the EA211 family of petrol engines appeared on the market, all VW Group cars that had a belt driven cam shaft came with a 4 year or X K miles replacement recommendation up until maybe 2007, then some engines came with a 5 year or Y K miles replacement recommendation, when the EA211 family of petrol engines came to market, they with a statement that said the cam belt was not a service item, it should be given a visual check for it condition at the maybe 5 years point, and at every year after that, replacement is only necessary if and when it shows sign of wear. That is also what is laid down in the official workshop manual.
So, VW Group workshops in at least UK, are just including these engines in their established "service menu" - and taking the money when possible.
I plan to continue checking the belt condition every year as I have done since that my wife's VW Polo 1.2TSI was new in 2015, and probably get the belt replaced round about or beyond the 7.5 year point at which time the mileage with be approximately 50K miles, mainly to "play safe" and we will keep that car until it is 13 years old.
So, VW Group workshops in at least UK, are just including these engines in their established "service menu" - and taking the money when possible.
I plan to continue checking the belt condition every year as I have done since that my wife's VW Polo 1.2TSI was new in 2015, and probably get the belt replaced round about or beyond the 7.5 year point at which time the mileage with be approximately 50K miles, mainly to "play safe" and we will keep that car until it is 13 years old.
I had the cambelt and pump done on mine at 7 years and ~70,000 miles and the guy said it looked fine. I'd hang fire for a while if I was you ??
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.If you look hard enough like I did for my 1.6 tdi you can find this info and also figures relating to 210,000kms before an inspection then every 10,000km after
But that's a TDI - which DO have timing belt change intervals.
The OP has a TSI - as RUM4MO confirmed this doesn't not have a recommended timing belt change interval from VAG - just a checking procedure, though I have read to really 'check' the belt properly you need to remove it? in which case you might as well replace!
Our TDI's have a small belt in oil - which again is without any change interval from VAG - obviously it can't last for ever so it's down to your own personal risk. Personally I think i'll change this small belt at the next timing belt change.
The thing is, maybe from day one of VW Group designing cars with "rubber" cam belts, VW Groups in UK have said "4 years X K miles", while in other countries with same operating conditions the recommendation was different, when these EA211 engines were launched, a "star" feature on them was this "for life" cam belt - and still VW Group dealerships in UK are pushing either 4 years or 5 years - but now some of us have the official VW Group workshop manual, and it clearly states what should be the official line, and that is as described on the launch sales burb.
There was from VW Group Indies, evidence that suggested leaving the older engines longer than 4 years X K miles was a risk not worth taking, so there was a lot of value in sticking with that 4 or 5 years replacement period, ie a service activity.
I find myself very much in agreement with you RUM. The earlier engines - like the engines of many manufacturers - has the water pump driven by the cam belt. Both our Fiats (Panda and Punto) have this setup and I do theirs (complete kit of belt, tensioner and waterpump) every 5 years, Actually I start scheduling it for a "good weather day" once 4 years have passed - neither car does high annual mileage. In my view the problem with this design is that the seal in the waterpump can and does fail which then causes damage to the water pump's bearing, introducing slack into the drivebelt which then either jumps teeth or maybe "derails" completely. (they nearly always make noise for some time before failing enough to cause this so don't ignore a "new" engine noise folks) My general experience is that the belts themselves are very robust and, if they fail, fail not due to their own construction but due to the failure of other parts of the drive system. So I can see that now the water pump is no longer part of the drive train on the EA211, the expected lifetime of the belt must be considerably increased. Then there's also the Cam drive sprockets which I see are no longer actually round! This, apparently, reduces forces acting on the belt teeth. So I'm very happy to accept the statement that the belt might be a "lifetime fitment" and the belt is fairly easily observed by removing the top belt cover and turning the engine over until the whole length of the belt has been seen (jack the O/S/F wheel clear of the ground, engage top gear and slowly rotate the wheel clockwise (ie forward direction - don't turn backwards) but I'm troubled by the fact that over many years of observing synchronous belts they seem to visually look absolutely fine right up until the moment they go "bang"! They may well exhibit some visual signs of distress, briefly, before failure but I think the likely hood that you'll be looking at the belt within this small "window" is quite small.
I agonized over this for a long time after my car - 2016 Ibiza 1.0 Ecomotive - came out of warranty and eventually, with the car over 5 years old, chickened out and got AVW (local, and excellent, VAG independent who I think you, RUM, also use) to renew the belt for me. I've heard stories about the plastic water pump casings leaking but have not heard of any actual pump failures so asked about the pump and whether either it, or just it's drive belt, should be changed at the same time and they told me they don't routinely change them or their drive belt and have so far had no problems with this. I elected not to do the pump. I have a weekly check routine anyway which should pick up a coolant leak early unless it;s a very sudden and catastrophic event.
I suppose in the end you have to make up your own mind and take an action with which you are content. I'm now agonizing over whether to renew the fuel filter (canister under the rear near the back axle which has never been changed) I'm told it's also a "lifetime fitment" but we are planning a trip down to "Her indoors" sister, in Devon, sometime when the better weather comes along. I'm also told it's quite possible to break the plastic fittings which then require the entire fuel line to be replaced? Wish I wasn't a worrier!
I found this puzzling when I last asked the parts dept. for a fuel filter and got told it's for life. Great but at some point it will be full of junk and need replacing, so it isn't really 'for life' is it, unless 'for life' is defined as when enough 'for life' components start to fail that's the end of your cars life!
Did you find somewhere that actually sells the filter?
That is what sort of discovered when I was going to give in and replace the filter on my wife's 2002 VW Polo when it was maybe 8 years old from new, ie I could not just walk into a VW dealership and buy a fuel filter, it needed to be ordered in for me.
@Crossthreaded, yes even as just a DIYer, it did seem to be the water pump that failed and that caused the timing belt to come off, but then with VW Group from maybe 2001, the blame for wrecking the engines moved to the failure of cam belt rollers and/or tensioners. Meanwhile the water pump's main or only failure was the "plastic" impellor cracking and moving off the spindle and so initially sending chipped off bits of impellor around the coolant circuit and eventually the impeller came free completely from the spindle so the coolant stopped being circulated by the water pump. At that point, "the word" was, to never ever buy a water pump from VW Group, all the preferred after market supplier's offerings had a steel impellor - but when I bought a genuine VW Group water pump in 2006/2007 for my wife's 2002 VW Polo 1.4 16V BBY engine, it also had changed to having a steel impellor - so maybe the "plastic impellor" story was true at that time, though I'm sure that the next water pump in 2010/2011 again a genuine VW Group one, had a plastic impellor, maybe previous problems resolved.
I remember keeping a bought new 1982 FWD Ford Escort 1.6 (CVH) Ghia long enough to get its timing belt replaced, it was handed back to me by Alexanders with the belt so tight that is must have been annoying the water pump a bit, I complained and they re-adjusted the cam belt and that sorted that out, luckily I traded it within a year. A neighbour was not so lucky, he seemed to leave every thing car wise to his dealership, a small Ford agent - and the first he know about the need to replace cam belts was when his one "went" and trashed the valves, all his small family trusted Ford agent could say was "you should have got that belt changed a year ago"!
I remember keeping a bought new 1982 FWD Ford Escort 1.6 (CVH) Ghia long enough to get its timing belt replaced, it was handed back to me by Alexanders with the belt so tight that is must have been annoying the water pump a bit, I complained and they re-adjusted the cam belt and that sorted that out, luckily I traded it within a year. A neighbour was not so lucky, he seemed to leave every thing car wise to his dealership, a small Ford agent - and the first he know about the need to replace cam belts was when his one "went" and trashed the valves, all his small family trusted Ford agent could say was "you should have got that belt changed a year ago"!
Yes RUM, I remember the stories about plastic impellors too. Strangely perhaps, I haven't actually run into the problem on VAG products but that may be because we've never owned one with the small petrol engine. My own Cordoba had a pump driven separately by the fan belt and our PD's never gave any problems. I didn't tackle my boy's 1.6 CR Fabia, leaving it to the lads at AVW. I do have considerable experience with the FIAT FIRE engines and they have plastic impellors on a cam belt driven setup. These pumps do suffer failed bearings, but no more than any other. Haven't come across one with an impellor problem yet. The ones I fitted to our Panda and Punto, about 2 years ago, were Gates kits (my favoured brand) and both had plastic impellors. Personally I'd never do a cam belt without changing the water pump too - on an engine where the water pump is in the belt train - unless I knew the pump had been renewed very recent to the belt change. Thinking back to my time on the shop floor, I didn't encounter ruined engines due to cam belt problems very often but I think they have got such a bad name because the outcome when one does let go is invariably quite spectacularly expensive! I feel very fortunate that our wee Panda has a "non interference" engine so if the belt lets go all that happens is the engine looses power and the car rolls to a stop. You just have to hope you're not in the fast lane at the time! Take it home, fit new belt kit and drive on. Diagnosing one where the impellor has come loose on the shaft must be difficult if you are not aware of the possibility.
Sitting at traffic lights listening to the protesting whine of an over tightened cambelt used to be a favourite pass time of mine not all that long ago. You very rarely hear that now though, probably due to spring loaded automatic tensioners now being used on most applications but also just that people got used to adjusting these belts correctly? Another favourite of mine is sitting at the top of the Mound or Abbey mount (where it crosses Regent road) both steep slopes, with the smell of burning clutch lining coming off the car in front as it's owner holds it on the clutch for a full change of the lights!
I've been looking into the fuel filters and it would seem they are available on line from a number of sources. Interestingly it seems to contain a pressure regulator on the inlet side. If you look at the filter it has 2 pipes on the inlet side and one on the "supply to engine" side. My guess, looking at the one on mine, is that the fuel is being regulated by a spring loaded diaphragm of some type with excess pressure being returned to the tank. The fuel at regulated pressure then travels through the filter element and out the other side through the outlet pipe and on to the engine. I've read a couple of warnings that you need to be very sure to get the right filter as the regulator pressure varies with application (I think the filter is used on several models/makes and pressures can differ depending). One of the tales I read was from someone who had fitted a filter he bought on line thinking it to be correct, but the engine didn't run well, even miss firing under load at higher revs. He later discovered that, although the physical dimensions were identical to the one he removed, the delivery pressure was down. I read another post to the effect that VAG themselves have slightly increased the pressure over the original fitment because of problems like this. So it would seem important to be sure you are buying not only the exact correct filter but also a reasonably newly manufactured one? Buying from the supplier here on our site - can't remember the name - who is also a supplier of Honda parts might be the way to go on this I think?
Changing the filter looks, on the face of it, to be a very simple task but I'm "bothered" by the tales of people breaking the "squeeze clips" and then having to replace the whole fuel line because the connectors are not replaceable on their own. It really can't be that hard though can it? I'm trying to build up my confidence to have a go myself! Might pop into AVW and get their take on it but their setup is much more professional now with a front reception office and it's more difficult to catch a "spanner wielder" for a quick ask.
PS added. I just remembered you mentioning the tensioner and guide roller problem. I think this was actually more of a problem than the water pumps if I'm right? They'd been making them out of metal, then changed to making the part that runs against the belt to plastic and they were breaking up with predictable results. As most of these are now plastic on many makes, I'm guessing they solved that one?
Sitting at traffic lights listening to the protesting whine of an over tightened cambelt used to be a favourite pass time of mine not all that long ago. You very rarely hear that now though, probably due to spring loaded automatic tensioners now being used on most applications but also just that people got used to adjusting these belts correctly? Another favourite of mine is sitting at the top of the Mound or Abbey mount (where it crosses Regent road) both steep slopes, with the smell of burning clutch lining coming off the car in front as it's owner holds it on the clutch for a full change of the lights!
I've been looking into the fuel filters and it would seem they are available on line from a number of sources. Interestingly it seems to contain a pressure regulator on the inlet side. If you look at the filter it has 2 pipes on the inlet side and one on the "supply to engine" side. My guess, looking at the one on mine, is that the fuel is being regulated by a spring loaded diaphragm of some type with excess pressure being returned to the tank. The fuel at regulated pressure then travels through the filter element and out the other side through the outlet pipe and on to the engine. I've read a couple of warnings that you need to be very sure to get the right filter as the regulator pressure varies with application (I think the filter is used on several models/makes and pressures can differ depending). One of the tales I read was from someone who had fitted a filter he bought on line thinking it to be correct, but the engine didn't run well, even miss firing under load at higher revs. He later discovered that, although the physical dimensions were identical to the one he removed, the delivery pressure was down. I read another post to the effect that VAG themselves have slightly increased the pressure over the original fitment because of problems like this. So it would seem important to be sure you are buying not only the exact correct filter but also a reasonably newly manufactured one? Buying from the supplier here on our site - can't remember the name - who is also a supplier of Honda parts might be the way to go on this I think?
Changing the filter looks, on the face of it, to be a very simple task but I'm "bothered" by the tales of people breaking the "squeeze clips" and then having to replace the whole fuel line because the connectors are not replaceable on their own. It really can't be that hard though can it? I'm trying to build up my confidence to have a go myself! Might pop into AVW and get their take on it but their setup is much more professional now with a front reception office and it's more difficult to catch a "spanner wielder" for a quick ask.
PS added. I just remembered you mentioning the tensioner and guide roller problem. I think this was actually more of a problem than the water pumps if I'm right? They'd been making them out of metal, then changed to making the part that runs against the belt to plastic and they were breaking up with predictable results. As most of these are now plastic on many makes, I'm guessing they solved that one?
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On the "rollers" thing, back in 2006/7 VW Group sold a kit of bits for replacing cam belts on the VW Group 1.4 16V petrol engines, the first VW Group Indie I used to replace a cam belt was Star Performance outside Kirkcaldy, they added in the top roller from the PDI kit of bits as in their experience, that roller did sometimes fail on these 1.4 16V engines, I don't know if VW Group ever added that into that kit with time.
Petrol fuel filter on that old 1.4 16V and same on our engines though maybe not the same pressure regulator, I think that the original plan in VW Group world was, if you really wanted to replace the filter by itself, they supplied a bare filter which came complete with a filter<>regulator seal, a retaining clip to hold the filter to the pressure regulator and a couple of regulators, which one you used depended on the engine you were fitting it to. So back in maybe 2010 I ordered in a new filter, new seal, a new clip and a couple of connector repair kits. Everything except the seal turned up, seal was on back order and months later it still did not appear, so I noticed a NOS correct pressure pressure regulator on ebay and I bought it, it came complete with a seal - so that probably explains why these seals remained on back order - ie 99.9% of people never asked for one - and more than that probably 99.9% changing these filter just bought the complete filter/regulator assembly! So to me that explained why filters by themselves appear as do filter/regulators of differing pressures.
Bottom line is, if I had really thought all that out back in 2010, I would of bought a complete filter/regulator assembly from VW dealership, by the way, that 2002 VW Polo was fitted from new with a Chinese made filter UDS or similar and the bare filter I bought was also that UDS brand over branded by VW Group, looking ahead, if I ever considered replacing that filter in this 2015 VW Polo my wife runs, I'd probably buy via ECP or GSF and pick a known European filter brand like Mann, Mahle, Hengst or Knecht.
I've said this in the past, replacing that fuel filter in that 2002 VW Polo just never happened due entirely down to me having unreasonable doubts about things going wrong - just like you! I'd think that many many lesser people including people that really don't do dirty jobs on their cars will have bought a new filter/regulator and fitted it very easily! I even bought a special pair of Laser Tools pliers to help me get that job done without any problems, but there again I think that with a bit of poking squeezing with fingers and the pipes would come free - if only I could get over doing that task!!
Finally, I'm sure that VW Group are now only fitting filter/regulator assemblies so no messing about splitting the filter from the regulator and reassembling with the new filter, which makes a lot more sense - probably if I or you looked at the parts listing we would not find a bare filter option for these EA211 engines, there will only be a combined filter/regulator - though maybe named a filter for convenience.
Petrol fuel filter on that old 1.4 16V and same on our engines though maybe not the same pressure regulator, I think that the original plan in VW Group world was, if you really wanted to replace the filter by itself, they supplied a bare filter which came complete with a filter<>regulator seal, a retaining clip to hold the filter to the pressure regulator and a couple of regulators, which one you used depended on the engine you were fitting it to. So back in maybe 2010 I ordered in a new filter, new seal, a new clip and a couple of connector repair kits. Everything except the seal turned up, seal was on back order and months later it still did not appear, so I noticed a NOS correct pressure pressure regulator on ebay and I bought it, it came complete with a seal - so that probably explains why these seals remained on back order - ie 99.9% of people never asked for one - and more than that probably 99.9% changing these filter just bought the complete filter/regulator assembly! So to me that explained why filters by themselves appear as do filter/regulators of differing pressures.
Bottom line is, if I had really thought all that out back in 2010, I would of bought a complete filter/regulator assembly from VW dealership, by the way, that 2002 VW Polo was fitted from new with a Chinese made filter UDS or similar and the bare filter I bought was also that UDS brand over branded by VW Group, looking ahead, if I ever considered replacing that filter in this 2015 VW Polo my wife runs, I'd probably buy via ECP or GSF and pick a known European filter brand like Mann, Mahle, Hengst or Knecht.
I've said this in the past, replacing that fuel filter in that 2002 VW Polo just never happened due entirely down to me having unreasonable doubts about things going wrong - just like you! I'd think that many many lesser people including people that really don't do dirty jobs on their cars will have bought a new filter/regulator and fitted it very easily! I even bought a special pair of Laser Tools pliers to help me get that job done without any problems, but there again I think that with a bit of poking squeezing with fingers and the pipes would come free - if only I could get over doing that task!!
Finally, I'm sure that VW Group are now only fitting filter/regulator assemblies so no messing about splitting the filter from the regulator and reassembling with the new filter, which makes a lot more sense - probably if I or you looked at the parts listing we would not find a bare filter option for these EA211 engines, there will only be a combined filter/regulator - though maybe named a filter for convenience.
The Petrol Ibiza 2016 has two fuel filter options listed depending on PR code - 4 or 6.6 bar. Looks like the 6.6 bar part fits the TSI engines. Both look the same from the outside.
Fuel filter change interval is usually linked with the market in which the car is sold - if the market has good quality fuel (UK) then they often get extended/no change interval. Markets with poor fuel will get shorter change periods.
This same filter (6.6 bar) is used from a 1.0TSI with less than 100bhp to a Audi 2.5 RS3 with 340bhp.
As the filter flows fuel over the years it will gradually filter out tiny impurities in the fuel and slowly block up/restrict the fuel flow.
It has a certain filter surface area to be able to flow enough fuel for a certain power level. I'm sure with only a tiny 1.0 and small fuel flow this filter will perform fine even mostly blocked up - If you had an RS3 with over 3x the power and fuel flow then I would change the fuel filter every few years.
Thank you very much indeed for that info, I'll take a good look at the filter next time I'm underneath and check up on it's part number if I can see it. One of the things I like about the way it's set up is that, from what I observe, the fuel enters the pressure regulator and excess fuel is bled off back to the tank at that point so only fuel required by the engine travels on through the filter medium and so out to the engine - unlike the older port injected engines where I think all the fuel was pumped through the filter on up to the engine where the pressure regulator was situated before excess fuel was returned to the tank. If, as you say, this filter is used across the range then I can see that it's going to have considerable "reserve capacity" when used on the smaller engined variants and will take a long time before clogging up when used with our, relatively, clean fuel.
Of course there is still the possibility that the filter medium may degrade to the point where it eventually breaks up - and I've seen this before on cars which have had servicing neglected - and small fragments will then travel on through to the engine HP pump and injectors which would be very bad news indeed.
Having "digested" what you've had to say here and with my car at nearly 6 years old with about 25,000 miles on the clock, I'm now feeling far less concerned about this. I'd been thinking I should do it before we make our next trip down to Devon sometime when the better weather returns but now I may just leave it a bit longer.
So, thanks again for enlightening me on this, I've learned more from your post here than all the "stuff" I've been able to find on line or at the main dealer!
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