1.2S - 4th coil failure. Why?

[Rory101]

I thought VAG had fixed this issue but our Ibiza had no 1 cyl coil pack fail for the 4th time. This is beyond annoying now, and of course always happend at a really inconvenient moment.

Last one was only 6mths ago, and was shortly after the car had a major service and the plugs allegedly changed (the attending AA man said the plugs didn't look new).

One slightly odd thing is that it's always the same one that fails - no1, (cam chain side). Does anyone know, or have any theory about why that might be?

I've spoken to SEAT UK and they couldn't care less. Other VAG brands have warranted coils for 5 years but SEAT just laughed.

 

[Nath.]

I was under the impression that Seat warranted coils for 5 years too.

I think you have just been unlucky with the coil packs, I don't know of no1 failing all the time being a common fault.

Are they genuine VAG ones that are being fitted?

 

[Rory101]

I was under the impression that Seat warranted coils for 5 years too.

I think you have just been unlucky with the coil packs, I don't know of no1 failing all the time being a common fault.

Are they genuine VAG ones that are being fitted?

They are genuine VAG ones.

We've ended up never actually having to pay, although the twice it happened while the car was under 3 yrs old, SEAT Assist (the AA) put the coil pack that they carry as a spare into the car but we would have had to pay for it. Only way around that was to drive to the SEAT dealer and get them to swap it and the AA man takes his spare coil back. Ridiculous.

3rd time (car at 4yrs old) the AA man just ticked a box that the coil was covered on a business account - no idea whether that's a change of proceedure ir he just got it wrong. He tried to check with someone but couldn't get any answer. I expected we might get a bill but didn't.
Yesterday, there was no issue as the last one was only fitted 6mths ago so the AA warranty covers it. He did ask if we'd paid for it, and I might have mumbled the answer.

 

[joe_ibiza]

i have no2 fail alot

 

[Rory101]

i have no2 fail alot

How strange.

It's been suggested to me that a high resistance (or too widely gapped) spark plug could contribute towards this, although on our car the plugs were changed last August.

I'll whip 'em out and have a look at the weekend.

 

[RUM4MO]

How strange.

It's been suggested to me that a high resistance (or too widely gapped) spark plug could contribute towards this, although on our car the plugs were changed last August.

I'll whip 'em out and have a look at the weekend.

I can understand that line of thought - the bigger gap will let the coil O/P rise a bit higher before it flashes across the gap, but we would have hoped that VAG designed them to have a bit of "head room" to cope with this. I think, depending on what you find gap-wise, that you and the previous poster should get together a few more similarly affected owners and give Seat UK a bit of trouble - it seem sthat it will take that action to waken them up to their responsibilites. It's one thing getting free coil replacement, but another having to put up with the inconvenience - not many people will consider this to be a good pastime!

 

[DFMM]

BOSCH hove been supplying duf H.T. individual units to several car manufacturers, out of their South African factory. SEAT have put a 5-year warranty on original-fitted units, but the latest revision, which my Son had to buy outside warranty, now carries a 2-year warranty, and he has had no more trouble since fitting 3 last summer ;-- BERU brand, which can be from Italy, or Turkey.
Unfortunately the first failure knackered the top lambda sensor ( £85 + labour ).
Repeated failures can be caused by the spark plugs, which can be helped by fitting the Denso Iridium-tipped ones, as they are less demanding on the coil, operating on less voltage.
The main thing the coils are sensitive to is poor electrical contacts in the low-tension plug/socket unit on the top of the coil-pack itself.
Obviously, the spark-plug needs to make a clean electrical contact in its thread in the cylinder-head, to give a good powerful spark, without demanding too much of the coil.
SO ---- gash old plugs should be renewed, even if you don't want to spend a tenner each on the Denso ones.

 

[RUM4MO]

I didn't think that Bosch were OEM suppliers of "COP" assembles to VAG - ever. Beru, I think, caused most trouble when they moved to Turkey lock stock and barrel - then they resited some "COP" manufacturing back in "old style Europe". The ones made in Italy were, I thought, the other brand (forgotten their name) - and they also had an out of "old style Europe" excursion and lived to regret it. Its these ones that are fitted mainly to the small engines 1.2 and 1.4 . So far, my wife's 2003MY/60,000 mile Polo 1.4 16V has only lost one coil.

 

[DFMM]

I can assure you that Bosch are paying VAG MAGGABUCKS over this, and Renault is another to suffer greatly from their poor Q.A.
My Son's first replacement coil-pack was supplied via the Aberdeen dealership, and I obtained the next 2 from the Inverness Dealer. All are Beru, the first from Italy, the others from Turkey. All have the same revision code.
As far as I recall, there are another 2 manufacturers, as seen on another thread.

 

[RUM4MO]

I can assure you that Bosch are paying VAG MAGGABUCKS over this, and Renault is another to suffer greatly from their poor Q.A.
My Son's first replacement coil-pack was supplied via the Aberdeen dealership, and I obtained the next 2 from the Inverness Dealer. All are Beru, the first from Italy, the others from Turkey. All have the same revision code.
As far as I recall, there are another 2 manufacturers, as seen on another thread.

This is weird as currently, at least over the past eight years, VAG have not "majored" on Bosch bits! The main (COP) coil manufacturer used by VAG at the engine plants tends to be Eldor (made in Italy) - that was the other name that I could not remember in an earlier posting. Even the spark plugs tend to be either Beru, or mainly NGK as are the HEGOS probes and glow plugs. Using Bosch aftermarket MAF bits is also not advised as VAG do not use them. The only Bosch bits that I have seen on new modern VAG cars are the flat windscreen wiper blades - even the motors tend to be Valeo. I have heard of agents like the AA etc buying and fitting Bosch (COP) coils - but that is due to them getting discount from Bosch outlets - but I'd avoid these Bosch aftermarket (COP) coils as they do seem to have a very bad name for reliability. This is a pity really as Bosch used to be a "good" parts supplier - then again so did Lucas/Girling before the name started getting rented out for anyone with money to use. If I remember correctly, it was Beru Turkish built (COP) coils that caused a huge problem about eight years ago on the 1.8T engines world wide! Given a choice, I'd try to use only Eldor Italian (COP) coils - and the 1.2 engines were supplied with them as were the 1.4 engines.

 

[Rory101]

Given a choice, I'd try to use only Eldor Italian (COP) coils - and the 1.2 engines were supplied with them as were the 1.4 engines.

Interesting, although the coil pack I recently bought for a fiver off eBay to keep in the car as a spare, is Eldor, but Made in Turkey. It's Rev F (036 905 715 F) and is date coded wk39/08.

The one the AA man fitted the other day was certainly Rev E, and was made in Turkey. I didn't notice the brand, but the markings looked the same as the spare although they could be VAG standardised. The original coils (2 & 3 are still original) are Rev A but also of Turkish origin.

 

[DFMM]

I must stand by my recollection that Bosch are paying reparations to VAG over this coil-pack debachle, caused by their South African factory, and Renault also suffered the same way.
The stores staff in Inverness, last June, assured me that they had had no further problems with the coils which they supplied to me, and they had already been in use for a year.
I have no doubt that Bosch were dropped like a hot potatoe in the early years of Mk 4 Ibiza production, or at least, as soon as the problematic supplier had been identified, after all, the cam-chain tensioner problem took several years to become clearly a common and almost inevitable failure mode with both 6-valve, and 12-valve 1.2 litre 3 pot VAG engines, although less common with the 6-valve.
It is likely that VAG were multisourcing their coil-packs, just as alternators and starters have been in the past by many manufacturers. Manufacturers have been avoiding reliance on sole suppliers for many years, including tyres, batteries, brake systems (eg Girling vs Lockheed ), dashboard instruments, brake linings themselves, exhausts: --- all to protect themselves from strikes at their suppliers.
( I have a vague idea that another coil-pack brand was Ferolli, or another spelling of it).

 

[DFMM]

I telephoned the storeman at our Inverness SEAT dealership today, and a quick check of his stock of coil-packs for the Mk 4 Ibiza Mk4 1.2 litre, totalled 5 items, all the latest revision, part number 036905715F. 4 were BERU brand, and the other is BREMI brand
AS VAG OEM parts they do not carry any indication of the source factory. All spares have a 2-year guarantee.
Price is £27.95 + VaT. ( there was no date of manufacture! ).

 

[RUM4MO]

Oh dear, so you are saying that Eldor are now manufacturing in Turkey as well - these companies will do anything to drive prices down, that is okay as long as the Turkish plants are manufacturing to the original specs - I'd think that they tend not to! I know as far as the VAG parts guy knows it only a part (normally), but as said, you can find the actual manufacturer, its production batch code and its build standard and the country of build on the actual item. I might have been lucky and deliberately bought a NOS Eldor same as fitted to car, hoping that it was made before some money saving improvements had been made to the spec! On the issue of parts being made not where you would hope or like them to be made, I spotted some Pagid brake pads on ebay - well they were being sold as Pagid as they kind of looked like them! It turned out that they were also manufactured, not under license from Pagid, in Turkey, digging deeper I traced the company name to a Turkish government backed group that issues rights to manufacture almost anything - ie copy in our language - not too good!

 

[philsip]

coil packs are made of chocolate! they break easily, audi tt's mk 1's have regular problems with them, but there all covered for 5 years under good will

 

[DFMM]

I don't think we should be so quick to condemn Turkey as a manufacturing base, after-all Toyota builds its 3-door AURIS models there. Also, Honda has factories in other far-east countries, which have only recently been arriving in the U.K., ie the Chinese-built JAZZ. Before that the U.K. only got the U.S.-built ACCORD ESTATE.
The FIAT 1.3 multijet diesel engine is built in India by TATA, and shipped all around the globe, to Japan, Italy, Hungary, and Poland, + G.M. Europe.
The Mk 7 Fiesta is going to be built in Germany, Spain, Mexico, and an Asian country, in some cases offered as sedans, eg the Americas, South Africa, India, etc.
The KIA CEE'D with its 7-year warranty is built in a new factory in Slovakia, and our streets are teeming with them, and the KIA/HYUNDIA combine seem to be on a very sound footing, after the near-collapse of the South-Korean economy, prior to the present world-wide slump.
You will also find BEKO branded televisions and white goods from Turkey.

 

[RUM4MO]

Well Beko is not a "top shelf" brand, Tanberg(?) moved their TV plant from Wales(?) to Turkey - and then proceeded to lose quite a bit of their market share after the Turkish built TVs proved to last a lot shorter time than the same model that had been Uk built.

It does stand to be common sense that if a"blue chip" company designs and builds what turns out to be a "well designed and reliable" product, then moves it lock stock and barrel elsewhere - ie where it is a lot cheaper to produce, as long as the new staff are trained correctly and the same quality level checks are carried out, then if the same proceses and facilites are then used to manufacture the product - then the end user will not feel any pain other than maybe some local unemployment. That was the line that Honda took when it moved its small coupe production to USA - but it turned out that the robotic welding systems were not set up correctly, the steel quality was not right and the staff turn over exceeded expectations - result - lots of unhappy Honda coupe owners as their cars needed some seroius body work re-welding when they were only about 12 months old. MB makes the same point when the motoring press exposed the truth behind their "built in Germany" cars - but quite a lot of prospective buyers choice to go elsewhere to buy their cars.

I have no problem with buying nonEU goods - and do so happily when it suits. What does not suit me is to pay EU manufactured prices, expect same reliability, but find that I have been mugged when someone moved the plant elsewhere to save (only them) money.