180BHP ABF Lump

[Maximuss]

Alwight guys,

Is it true that the 2.0L 16V ABF is actually 180BHP but restricted to 150BHP for british standards??

If so, is there anyone who can reverse this restriction so that it pushes the full 180BHP as it is meant to??

Tried AMD - they don't know what i'm talking about.

Any ideas, anyone?

I'm asking, as a normal chip/remap gives hardly any improvement for the cost. (10% extras bhp - claimed)

Thanks.

 

[m0rk]

nope - it's not restricted. in the manner you desribe

 

[edc]

It is rated at 150bhp everywhere. Theer are plenty of stories about saying that when developed it was giving around 170bhp which was too close to the VR6. A remap will push you near to that.

 

[Maximuss]

Cheers Guys,

Found a source (a V-DUB fantic) who's done it to his Golf ABF lump.
Apparently its a chip which re-regulates the whole ECU - sounds like crap to me but who knows.

Will keep you guys posted!!!!!!

 

[Fl@pper]

for british standards ? wot like emissions for MOT

 

[Glenn]

Have a think about this for a minute. A top notch, road-going (i.e. not race/race-spec) production N/A engine will produce ~75ftlb per litre. Perfect example - Honda S2000 engine.

I can't seem to find the specs for the ABF but from memory it's something like 150bhp @6250RPM (and thus ~126ftlb) and a peak torque of 133ftlb?

So to make 180bhp :

with ~126ftlb, you need to rev to 7503RPM,

with 133ftlb, you need to rev to 7108RPM,

even if you could somehow make 150ftlb, you'd have to rev to 6302RPM.

Alternatively you need to increase torque by ~20% to make 180bhp @ 6250RPM.

Your source is suggesting this is possible from just a re-calibration with no mechanical changes whatsoever? Does this sound feasible to you?

 

[m0rk]

it does if yer mate says so.

 

[Fl@pper]

listed standard as

Power Output: 150 bhp
Torque: 180 Nm
Torque: 133 lb/ft

don't forget VW groups notorious habit of understating a cars capabilities especially in view of previous (chop it or the Vr6 will suffer) statements etc

seen the same engine as standard in a golf 3 run well

130 lb/ft @ 2800rpm

145 lb/ft @ 5441rpm

160.8 bhp @ 6029rpm

and if i remember correctly m0rk's cordie hit 165bhp odd standard too so it aint far away really but who cares as long as it goes well eh ??

s2000 is 240bhp odd at somewhere around 10k rpm peak - not sure where peak power is as i was too busy revving it at the time very impressive motor but prefer the accord type R engine myself - seems a little gruntier to me

 

[Glenn]

S2000 is 240bhp @ 8300 (so 151.8ftlbs) and peak torque 153ftlbs @7500.

I think it shows exactly what I'm saying that N/A road engines, where emissions limit cam choice will struggle to make more than 75ftlb per litre. With that in mind, the only way to raise the peak power is to up the revs BUT once you're past peak V.E. (peak torque), the cylinder-filling starts to drop off drastically with RPM unless you have VTEC or similar to counter it. Essentially that's all a hot cam does - move the V.E. peak further up the rev range, so to use Flappers numbers, instead of 145ftlbs @ 5441 = 150bhp, we maybe get 145ftlbs @ 6000 = 165bhp.

I can buy an otherwise stock ABF making ~160bhp but 180bhp without physical changes to the engine? Not in a million years, unless it's done at Monster Joe's Dodgy Dyno. You can mess around with the fuel & timing forever but if the air isn't getting into the cylinders, the engine won't make the power.

I just feel a little sorry for guys who haven't clocked that this stuff is repeatable & predictable with a bit of maths - you don't have to rely on some bullsh*tters word of mouth. I suppose the cheapest way of improving your bhp is to scribble out the number on your dyno sheet and just write in one that makes you feel better!

 

[Sim]

My ABF pushed out 160hp & 190NM (RR numbers) with just a panel filter and back box. It got chipped and de cat-ed later by the new owner, giving near 170hp, then a 35shot introus helped it to reach the 200HP mark. Still works.

 

[cordobabrendy]

brm tuned the abf to 180 bhp, was one of their toledos out round one of our trackdays over here on saturday, went well.

 

[RobT]

My old 2L 16V when it was running with some hot-ish cams (schrick 276's), a brain ricketts head, balanced internals and a nice exhaust and lumenition ecu made 180hp

There is no way, not in a million years, a std abf with only a remap will make 180hp.

When that engine went onto throttle bodies, gained 25hp (205hp)

Latest higher spec engine, high compression pistons, steel rods, madder cams, big valve head etc - 217hp on rollers, 237hp on dyno 170ftlb

There is no majic to it all below 230-240hp, majic comes after that where hours of dyno time is needed and millions of pounds to optimise everything in the system

 

[pint_of_stella]

My standard ABF RR'd @ 164.4 @ 6333
and had 139ftlbs

juat thought i'd add to the list

 

[Wilko]

S2000 is 240bhp @ 8300 (so 151.8ftlbs) and peak torque 153ftlbs @7500.

I think it shows exactly what I'm saying that N/A road engines, where emissions limit cam choice will struggle to make more than 75ftlb per litre. With that in mind, the only way to raise the peak power is to up the revs BUT once you're past peak V.E. (peak torque), the cylinder-filling starts to drop off drastically with RPM unless you have VTEC or similar to counter it. Essentially that's all a hot cam does - move the V.E. peak further up the rev range, so to use Flappers numbers, instead of 145ftlbs @ 5441 = 150bhp, we maybe get 145ftlbs @ 6000 = 165bhp.

I can buy an otherwise stock ABF making ~160bhp but 180bhp without physical changes to the engine? Not in a million years, unless it's done at Monster Joe's Dodgy Dyno. You can mess around with the fuel & timing forever but if the air isn't getting into the cylinders, the engine won't make the power.

I just feel a little sorry for guys who haven't clocked that this stuff is repeatable & predictable with a bit of maths - you don't have to rely on some bullsh*tters word of mouth. I suppose the cheapest way of improving your bhp is to scribble out the number on your dyno sheet and just write in one that makes you feel better!

Glen
I've tried to explain this to people untill I'm blue in the face. Particularly R32 owners who think a remap has given them 270lbft, (85lbft/l). The absolute cream of car engines from Porsche, Ferrari etc struggle to push much over the 75lbft/l mark on engines designed to run on high octane fuels, with over 100% volumetric efficiency at peak torque. Hell the Maca F1 only got to just under 80hp/l, and how much money, development and expertise went into that engine.

But BMW do claim some quite frankly ridiculous specific torque figures for their M series engines. Very clever engines though.

Rob.
I'm assuming your torque figure on the dyno was without exhaust etc?

 

[Maximuss]

easy guys

sorry, i didn't mean to kick off any arguments.
i'm going along with what i hear, and checking with you guys.

thanks

 

[Fl@pper]

sorry, i didn't mean to kick off any arguments.
i'm going along with what i hear, and checking with you guys.

thanks

tis all good fun eh

 

[sean martin]

The above figures all make good sense to me. My ABF just makes just over 150lbft/l and its had a couple of £1000 chucked at it. If your tuning a car for the road then a good torque curve is more important than the actual peak hp reading from a RR. For example if you stick hotter cams in a relatively tame engine you may see 185 hp but NO torque. Use the correct cam and you may achieve 180 hp but a much better torque curve. I learnt this the hard way and it cost me mucho £££££ to get it right!

 

[Fl@pper]

If your tuning a car for the road then a good torque curve is more important than the actual peak hp reading from a RR

good man - well said

 

[Glenn]

sorry, i didn't mean to kick off any arguments.
i'm going along with what i hear, and checking with you guys.

thanks

No kick-offs here, just solid discussion. If someone's read this and learned something new, it's a good thing.

 

[Grayboy]

Looking at option for tuning my ABF, plans already

1. Full exhaust with 4 branch Manifold and highflow cat and downpipe.
2. BMC induction kit with custom intake pipe.
3. Re mapped.

Hoping this little lot should give me around 170BHP

from here on I'm confused as everyone seems to have different ideas.

Sounds like you've done a bit experimentation what Head & Cam combo have you ended up with for Sean (and anyone else) and what has been the result both on paper and the road? and do you think it was worth the money?

Has anyone tried enlarging the throttle body (if this is poss) of lightening the flywheel?

Has anyone tried a G60 Charger?
I've looked into Pro-chargers but it's gonna be £3.5K just for the charger so a tad pricey. still hunting US sites to see if anyones done one on an ABF out there.

Regards

Graham