95 ron

toocoolpash

Active Member
Jul 4, 2012
257
0
Birmingham
Bad news.. when it ran out of fuel the petrol station he used had both cheap and 98 fuel.. he chose to use the cheap stuff and i paid for it as he added it to my bill. He said its best to map it on 95 and if i do run it on 98 it will increase in power. No mention of it being pointless! He's been doing it for years and is very reliable, would think it a bit strange if he did all that and said it would get extra power if it couldn't! either way ill bell him 2moro to see what he says! Tbf tho it still made 287bhp on the 95 octane so its not exactly slow "/
 

toocoolpash

Active Member
Jul 4, 2012
257
0
Birmingham
also should note he said if i put the vpower in it would take 15miles or so to adjust to the higher octane so he clearly knows what he has done.. perhaps i'm getting it mixed up somehow.. although it was definitely mapped on 95.
 

toocoolpash

Active Member
Jul 4, 2012
257
0
Birmingham
okay, but this guy helped build a 1000bhp jetta and ive been going to him for years. i doubt he would bullshit me. Either way ill speak to him 2moro. Ps: i had vpower in when it went.. i thought i had enough but it had a couple runs on dyno that i wasnt banking on due to a misfire...i didnt personally suggest it be mapped on 95 before i paid him, i assumed it was done on the vpower!
 

LEE69

Stage 2 Revo'd
Dec 10, 2004
21,262
74
C\UK\Devon\Torquay
Hit 234 bhp on my LG seeing as it was run on bills at 210 bhp on shite fuel massive cold temps and bp ultimate really work well

Just got that from my readers ride, mine was running 97 Sainsburys fuel and performed like 95 ron Bill said I have made no adjustments what so ever by the sps switch and now it hits 234 bhp...go figure
 
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Nautilus

Active Member
Dec 9, 2006
547
2
Bucharest, Romania
1. Lower octane fuel will pull timing. Even in a stock AUQ / AMK engine. This translates into power loss.

2. Lower octane fuel, even worse in a mapped car running standard PFR6Q sparkplugs, which do a poor job of dissipating heat, will result in detonation. To a point, the ECU can pull timing to compensate, beyond that it's detonation and a much shorter life of the piston, exhaust valve and sparkplug itself. Pre-detonation, or pre-ignition, may easily bend one or more rods. (The number of bent rods and thrown rods on this very forum just after a year of massive increase in fuel prices is a bit suspect :lol: )

3. Running with slight detonation and lower octane fuel will burn less than normal of a full cylinder charge, and carbon builds up.

4. The result of running always, since the first day, only on fuels above 98 RON can be easily seen if the engine is opened and the cylinder wall, cylinder head and valves are absolutely, lab-like clean.

~Nautilus
 

toocoolpash

Active Member
Jul 4, 2012
257
0
Birmingham
The car is mapped on 95 as a base line. The ecu is adaptive to whatever fuel i put in and will so change the timing accordingly. So not a waste of money after all, which what i suspected :) Vince defiantly knows his stuff down at stealth racing :)
 

toocoolpash

Active Member
Jul 4, 2012
257
0
Birmingham
£350 mate highly recommended (Second car he has done for me) He's based in Southam which is about a 45min drive from me here in Brum but he's always helpful and iv'e often made the trip just to check error codes and him to have a look at any suspect problems. I was once told my steering rack had gone by my local garage who had it all day to decide that was the problem due to a knockin noise and was gonna be a big expensive job. I took one trip to him, one drive from end of car park to other and half an hour later a nut tightened on the spring, noise had gone. One of the reasons why i trust him and stealth racing :)
 

Muttley

Catch that diesel!
Mar 17, 2006
4,987
31
North Kent
toocoolpash wrote

Are you serious? How come? I was told putting higher octane in would increase power "/​

Because if he's mapped it to run on 95 RON then the engine has been detuned to run on lower octane fuel without knocking. This is sometimes done for countries where 98 RON is difficult to come by.

The effect of putting 98 RON in would now be just the same as putting 98 RON in a 1 litre Saxo - no effect on power output, the engine isn't tuned for it.

On the other hand, if what he's done is leave the set of backoff maps in the ECU so that it can adapt to 95 but still use 98, then you can still obtain advantages from super unleaded. But this is NOT the same as "mapping for 95". I'd guess that he's made the full power map more aggressive but left the "95RON map" as it is and maybe done something to the way it changes between them.

The octane rating of the fuel has nothing to do with its "power". It's a measure of how difficult it is to set fire to. 98 RON is harder to set alight than 95 RON, so that it can be used in higher compression engines without detonating.

Detonating is where pockets of the fuel-air mixture explode simply from the heat of compression. The explosion creates much higher cylinder pressures and shockwaves through the combustion chamber, overstressing the cylinder head, piston, conrod and crank. The fuel-air mixture is meant to burn in a smooth and predictable way after ignition by the spark plug, producing a relatively gradual pressure rise. The explosions produced by detonation cause sharp pressure rises and occur earlier in the power cycle than those produced by proper ignition - detonation is faster than burning. It is very destructive and will trash your engine in seconds if left unchecked.

(98 RON is harder to set fire to than 95 RON but you don't measure that by waving a match over a pool of it. Both will go whoof and burn your eyebrows off).

The standard map expects 98 RON and the ignition timing is set to take advantage of that. If you fill a standard car with 95 RON, the knock sensors (two solid-state sensors bolted to the crankcase that detect the vibration that is characteristic of detonation) will immediately detect knock and the ECU will move to a different map, with a richer mixture and less ignition advance, ensuring the fuel is ignited by the spark plug before it detonates.

Trouble with this is you're relying on the knock sensors to work every time you switch on the engine. As far as I know, as soon as it detects knock the ECU goes to a different map - but it has to detect the knock first, so the engine has to start to knock - which is not good for it.

I'm not sure what process it uses to regain best power if you put 98 RON back in. I assume it shifts to a more aggressive map by stages at each startup until it detects knock again, or reaches the preset "98-RON standard" map. Advancing by small increments will minimise engine damage - which accumulates every time you get knock.
 
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Steely

semiskimmed cupra R
Dec 30, 2008
1,425
5
Doncaster
toocoolpash wrote

Are you serious? How come? I was told putting higher octane in would increase power "/​

Because if he's mapped it to run on 95 RON then the engine has been detuned to run on lower octane fuel without knocking. This is sometimes done for countries where 98 RON is difficult to come by.

The effect of putting 98 RON in would now be just the same as putting 98 RON in a 1 litre Saxo - no effect on power output, the engine isn't tuned for it.

On the other hand, if what he's done is leave the set of backoff maps in the ECU so that it can adapt to 95 but still use 98, then you can still obtain advantages from super unleaded. But this is NOT the same as "mapping for 95". I'd guess that he's made the full power map more aggressive but left the "95RON map" as it is and maybe done something to the way it changes between them.

The octane rating of the fuel has nothing to do with its "power". It's a measure of how difficult it is to set fire to. 98 RON is harder to set alight than 95 RON, so that it can be used in higher compression engines without detonating.

Detonating is where pockets of the fuel-air mixture explode simply from the heat of compression. The explosion creates much higher cylinder pressures and shockwaves through the combustion chamber, overstressing the cylinder head, piston, conrod and crank. The fuel-air mixture is meant to burn in a smooth and predictable way after ignition by the spark plug, producing a relatively gradual pressure rise. The explosions produced by detonation cause sharp pressure rises and occur earlier in the power cycle than those produced by proper ignition - detonation is faster than burning. It is very destructive and will trash your engine in seconds if left unchecked.

(98 RON is harder to set fire to than 95 RON but you don't measure that by waving a match over a pool of it. Both will go whoof and burn your eyebrows off).

The standard map expects 98 RON and the ignition timing is set to take advantage of that. If you fill a standard car with 95 RON, the knock sensors (two solid-state sensors bolted to the crankcase that detect the vibration that is characteristic of detonation) will immediately detect knock and the ECU will move to a different map, with a richer mixture and less ignition advance, ensuring the fuel is ignited by the spark plug before it detonates.

Trouble with this is you're relying on the knock sensors to work every time you switch on the engine. As far as I know, as soon as it detects knock the ECU goes to a different map - but it has to detect the knock first, so the engine has to start to knock - which is not good for it.

I'm not sure what process it uses to regain best power if you put 98 RON back in. I assume it shifts to a more aggressive map by stages at each startup until it detects knock again, or reaches the preset "98-RON standard" map. Advancing by small increments will minimise engine damage - which accumulates every time you get knock.



personally without sounding funny, I would have to dissagree By opinion..( only purely on the 95 only bit!)


Any Vehicle fitted with a knock sensor, will adjust timing relative to knock ,


VAG 1.8t (Knock sensor fitted) will benefit


rover K-series, (No Knock sensor) will not benefit from 98 over 95 in any guise,. & cannot control pre-det
 
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DOLBY

Active Member
Jun 24, 2006
2,934
98
North of London
www.facebook.com
Exactly Muttley......exactly why im scared to death to put the 95 fuel in. I think in the time ive had the car (6 years) i have had to put the cheap fuel in 2 or 3 times, and that was only £10 worth each time. 1st 2 times cos there was no super, and the 3rd time because the only petrol station near to work was asda.

All 3 times as soon as i filled it, i made sure that fuel was gone the same very day (by driving around burning it off) then a full tank of super when i saw a good garage.

oh yeh, i am THAT anal!!!
 

Sinbad

Active Member
Oct 25, 2006
238
0
Johannesburg, South Africa
Exactly Muttley......exactly why im scared to death to put the 95 fuel in. I think in the time ive had the car (6 years) i have had to put the cheap fuel in 2 or 3 times, and that was only £10 worth each time. 1st 2 times cos there was no super, and the 3rd time because the only petrol station near to work was asda.

All 3 times as soon as i filled it, i made sure that fuel was gone the same very day (by driving around burning it off) then a full tank of super when i saw a good garage.

oh yeh, i am THAT anal!!!

95 is nothing to be scared of unless your car is quite aggressively tuned. I run 95 all day every day because there is nothing better in SA.
 

Nautilus

Active Member
Dec 9, 2006
547
2
Bucharest, Romania
Exactly Muttley......exactly why im scared to death to put the 95 fuel in. I think in the time ive had the car (6 years) i have had to put the cheap fuel in 2 or 3 times, and that was only £10 worth each time. 1st 2 times cos there was no super, and the 3rd time because the only petrol station near to work was asda.

Poor fuel (regardless of octane rating, the quality of the fuel quickly degrades by contamination with water or crap from old station tanks) will betray itself by a specific sound of the 1.8T engine, a sort of "snorring" at mid-rpm. It indicates irregular burn. If it does that, switch to another gas station.

~Nautilus
 

DOLBY

Active Member
Jun 24, 2006
2,934
98
North of London
www.facebook.com
95 is nothing to be scared of unless your car is quite aggressively tuned. I run 95 all day every day because there is nothing better in SA.

Ok, bad choice of words...not "scared to death" more like extra extra careful not to floor it or rev it too much. £10 of fuel when its nect to empty will give you 20 miles or something? Soon gets burned off. Literally the 3 'mistakes' i made were just to get me to another fuel station.

Poor fuel (regardless of octane rating, the quality of the fuel quickly degrades by contamination with water or crap from old station tanks) will betray itself by a specific sound of the 1.8T engine, a sort of "snorring" at mid-rpm. It indicates irregular burn. If it does that, switch to another gas station.

~Nautilus

Exactly why i normally always use the same station. Always used my shell garage and Vpower until the garage frauded me and loads of others, so had to use the cashpoint machine outside and pay cash all the time...until that machine decided it didnt like my cashpoint card (wtf?)....so now religiously use Tesco Mommentum.
 

Jason-R

Active Member
Feb 9, 2012
92
0
Sussex
Ok at the risk of starting another massive ruck, I am running sainsburys super which is 97 Ron and car feels like it is running beautifully. If I stick a few tanks of momentum 99 in will I notice any real difference?


Cracking thread btw
 
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