Anybody got an APR intercooler?

[Al]

I have an S3 Intercooler and saw quite a nice reduction in inlet temperatures over the OEM intercooler.

As I live in the far North, I am not convinced I would see the benefits of spending so much on swapping the S3 core for an APR core as we rarely see days over 20oC, but on the other hand, I am not really sure just how much more efficient the APR core is than the S3 core although I am sure it will be despite it being fairly "jammed in" to the space available.

As Warren mentioned above, the biggest restrictions for any intercooler in the OEM position is the radiator and a/c cores in front of the APR/THS/S3/OEM intercooler. In that respect the likes of the Forge twintercooler has more chance of collecting cold air than any of the other intercoolers. As it happens, there are also one or two similar options are available to do the same job as the Forge Twintercooler for about half the price on ebay.

 

[ZBOYD]

Been thinking about this more over the last day or so and been researching a little more info.

Its a myth really that the OEM position is obstructive to air flow. The OEM position is very efficient really for cooling but any replacement aftermarket IC will require more R&D to produce the parts necessary to fit in the OEM space.

APR chose to produce a product that fits in the OEM space without the need for an auxiliary unit.

Remembering that the R&D has to incorporate all the mounting points and hangers not only for itself but for the radiator and air-con components too. Typically its also a bigger job to fit and replace a full IC than tag on a front mounted auxiliary unit such as the Forge.

Forge designed a product that works very well and is certainly cost effective, yet it still requires the OEM parts to be installed, they essentially work alongside the OEM IC to increase the overall efficiency.

An IC design such as the twintercooler, increases performance not just by its cooling effect but by adding an auxiliary core alongside the stock core with which to handle greater intake pressures and provide a greater volume of cooling space.

Size is just one of the variables that go into determining how an intercooler performs. The design of the core plays a role in its ability to dissipate heat and it's overall effect on pressure drop.

The control of charge temperature undoubtably has an important role to play especially during the summer months, BUT it isn't the sole reason for choosing an up-rated intercooler. The benefits of a larger core are also its ability to cope with intake charge temps while also increasing its volume for the associated higher pressures you get with a remapped car.

A lack of volume within the core can be a contributing factor to poor performance just as much as poor heat dissipation. Furthermore too much volume may cause a pressure drop, so the tuners R&D work is very important.

The OEM cores typically have less capacity and the cores are constructed usually of a fin and tube design, mainly for cost saving purposes to the manufacturer who foremost built the components to deal with the stock power and isn't considering over engineering these components to allow an increase in output like the vehicles mod mad owner maybe.

The APR IC uses a bar & plate core (more efficient, but more expensive), and I believe the same can be said of Forges products too. APR differs with its end tanks which are cast units rather than sheet metal, this no doubt contributes to the higher end price point of the APR on top of the R&D work on the fitment as mentioned earlier.

At the end of the day its about personal choice, some people buy VW's some of us bought SEAT's instead its the same thing. You pay your money and you take your choice...its not always about saving something in the pocket. My mods were all designed to compliment the map the car is running so overall it makes sense to me.

But whichever product you choose it should give a useful benefit

 

[Al]

Agreed

That said Mark, when you see the a/c core, radiator and intercoolers together with the front of the car off, you would be surprised how much of a restriction the a/c core and radiator are to the intercooler.

Something I know we have touched on before - its unlikely to happen, but it would be good to see the different cores efficiencies tested back to back to see just how efficient each of them are.

 

[ZBOYD]

Agreed

That said Mark, when you see the a/c core, radiator and intercoolers together with the front of the car off, you would be surprised how much of a restriction the a/c core and radiator are to the intercooler.

Something I know we have touched on before - its unlikely to happen, but it would be good to see the different cores efficiencies tested back to back to see just how efficient each of them are.

I've no need to imagine what they look like I've seen it close hand too.

It might appear to be restrictive to the eye, but then I'm running sub 20 degree core temps at the height of summer. It wouldn't appear to make that much of a difference. Even with a front mounted Forge your still channelling the air through the stock oem location., so its not just the Forge parts that need to be efficient the OEM parts must play their part.

 

[lukecupra2001]

See posts like this are why SCN is such a good site, im not even looking at cars yet cant make my mind up what i want but either way its all going to come in handy like has done over the last 5years nearly.

cheers people

 

[Al]

I've no need to imagine what they look like I've seen it close hand too.

It might appear to be restrictive to the eye, but then I'm running sub 20 degree core temps at the height of summer. It wouldn't appear to make that much of a difference. Even with a front mounted Forge your still channelling the air through the stock oem location., so its not just the Forge parts that need to be efficient the OEM parts must play their part.

My point was that it would be even more efficient without all those gubbings in front of the intercooler though, a la EVO style . You can see from that picture that the only part of the cooler open to clear air is at the edges. The rest has to work its way though very small gaps.
.

 

[ZBOYD]

My point being it really doesn't appear to bother the car all that much even if there is a perceived restriction, I've certainly not noticed any holding back.

Doesn't appear to be bothering the stage 3 cars all that much either.

 

[chrisboyle999]

remember, size isnt everything (i'm still talking intercoolers here!)

thermal efficiency is the be-all and end-all to heat transfer. and while biggest isnt always best, its bound to make a difference.

metal is a conductor of heat, plastic is an insulator. this alone will make a huge difference.

while the other cores in front of the ic obviously make a difference they are irrelavant to all oem replacements as all cars have them.

before and after logging gives tangible data but even then the weather/test conditions will never be identicle.

in my opinion an intercooler in this case is 'you get what you pay for'.

 

[ares]

Based on trial and error methods the most effective cobination is the S3 + Forge FMIC pair.

 

[Al]

Based on trial and error methods the most effective cobination is the S3 + Forge FMIC pair.

Thats what I would imagine to be the most effective also, although an APR/Forge combo would probably be better

 

[ares]

Thats what I would imagine to be the most effective also, although an APR/Forge combo would probably be better

It would be an overkill and the lag will kill you. Too much volume to operate properly.

 

[chrisboyle999]

It would be an overkill and the lag will kill you. Too much volume to operate properly.

would you explain why you think this please?

 

[ares]

Well to put in simple words large volume in the IC increases the pressure difference between input output which in turn increases turbo lag. You must increase IC volume in proportion to your turbo size. Maybe a bit exaggerated but try to picture it as trying to pass air from a hair-blower through a truck's IC.

 

[ZBOYD]

I agree and that was the point I made several posts back that volume is important and requires good R&D to design a core capable of providing good flow characteristics while preventing pressure drops.

Mating an APR up to a Forge would be too much volume for a k04 to cope with and this wasn't what the Forge was designed for.

The APR is designed to replace the OEM IC entirely and not to be mated up to any auxiliary core.

The Forge compensates for a lack of volume in an OEM IC and acts in a symbiotic way to provide both extra volume and cooling. Essentially creating a larger IC but in two parts.

 

[chrisboyle999]

but you arent increasing the volume of air. you are diverting the air in the system through two intercoolers, which will help flow because they are mounted in parallel. the volume will remain the same and is dependant upon the cai. in short, the turbo is shifting the same amount of air, but that air should be colder. no difference in lag.

 

[Al]

Some interesting points here, but to my knowledge at least, nobody has paired an APR core and a Forge Twintercooler yet, therefore it would be hard to know if the combined volume would be too high and create a pressure drop.

It would be interesting to see results from the pairing though

 

[ares]

but you arent increasing the volume of air. you are diverting the air in the system through two intercoolers, which will help flow because they are mounted in parallel. the volume will remain the same and is dependant upon the cai. in short, the turbo is shifting the same amount of air, but that air should be colder. no difference in lag.

I think you are missing the point. You are increasing the size of the "containers" and inevitably the length of the piping the air has to go through. It's simple physics. Google around and you'll find much more technical info on the subject and I believe you'll understand the logic behind it.

 

[chrisboyle999]

i agree the 'containers' are larger, but the length of the system has not changed (maybe a few inches but not significantly).

the coolers are fitted in parallel, therefore the restriction to the flow throught the coolers has reduced, much like fitting resistors in parallel compared to series. as you say, simple physics.

the charge pressure may not be as great as your squeezing the same volume of air into 2 'containers'. but pressure is not important, its the quantity or volume of air that is and this isnt affected. flow and pressure are 2 completely different things and shouldnt be confused. a turbo produces a flow of air, the pressure is created by resistance to that flow.