fr tdi over filled with oil

[fruitloop fr]

I have a 2007 fr tdi which has been over filled with engine oil by approx 15-20mm above the MAX indicator on the dipstick. Since it was over filled the m.p.g. has dropped from 45-47 to 36-38 and the power has dropped.
At first it had a major dead spot at 2000 rpm, that was VERY noticable in 1st gear, and had lost a lot of the massive surge of torque low down in 2nd and 3rd. It also felt like the engine was struggling to rev freely.
As we speak the engine seems have a very linear power delivery right up to the limiter ! ( no "massive" low down torque, just seems to pull harder and harder the higher up the rev range. ??? ) Average m.p.g. is still only 36-38 though.
Occasionally the engine stutters, like it has a fuelling / misfire problem, the exhaust note also sounds like there's a hole in the exhaust. If you blip the throttle at standstill there's a very deep resonating noise as the revs drop back to tickover. This noise could last for 1 to 5/6 seconds.
I have not had any warning lights come up, so my local seat dealer doesnt have a clue so have been reluctant to do ANY work on the car until they can get a fault code ! (they've had the car 8 or 9 times and have only fitted a new MAF sensor, which made no difference at all ).
If anyone knows of any problems caused by over filling this engine with oil, or any ideas on the faults discribed i'd be really greatfull. PLEASE HELP, IT'S DRIVING ME MAD !!!!!

 

[Andrewcupra TDI]

have you tried dropping a litle oild out to get it back to levels

or even keep checking the dipstick and wiping it away , will take a few goes =but will gradually decrease the level ??

 

[fruitloop fr]

Car has been serviced since. I've even let the oil level drop to the minimum mark on the dipstick between services ! Power delivery characteristics seem to change with time (not current oil level) but it's impossible to get the m.p.g. above 38, even if i drive like an O.A.P.
I'm wondering if over filling the engine oil could have caused permanent damage to the DPF or CAT, or clogged the EGR valve, or even caused a problem with the turbo / wastegate.
My local seat dealer are also saying that 38 m.p.g. is normal for the FR TDI, even though I was getting between 45-47 m.p.g. before it was over filled ! I'm down by roughly 100 miles a tank !

 

[Muttley]

1.5-2 cm is a long way above maximum. You may well have had the level above the bottom of the crank. Lots of oil splashing, and a lot more oil making its way into the inlet manifold. Reduction in power as it is being wasted by the crank hitting the oil all the time.

How long was it left with too much oil in? Did you notice a lot more smoke out of the exhaust?

Have you had a look to see if there IS a hole in the exhaust?

I'd have to guess what might go wrong from gross overfilling. The oil could certainly increase the amount of sooty sludge built up downstream of the EGR valve, which may be choking the inlet manifold. In the exhaust, the catalyst may now be partly choked by soot.

 

[OLDOILER]

I have a 2007 fr tdi which has been over filled with engine oil by approx 15-20mm above the MAX indicator on the dipstick. Since it was over filled the m.p.g. has dropped from 45-47 to 36-38 and the power has dropped.
At first it had a major dead spot at 2000 rpm, that was VERY noticable in 1st gear, and had lost a lot of the massive surge of torque low down in 2nd and 3rd. It also felt like the engine was struggling to rev freely.
As we speak the engine seems have a very linear power delivery right up to the limiter ! ( no "massive" low down torque, just seems to pull harder and harder the higher up the rev range. ??? ) Average m.p.g. is still only 36-38 though.
Occasionally the engine stutters, like it has a fuelling / misfire problem, the exhaust note also sounds like there's a hole in the exhaust. If you blip the throttle at standstill there's a very deep resonating noise as the revs drop back to tickover. This noise could last for 1 to 5/6 seconds.
I have not had any warning lights come up, so my local seat dealer doesnt have a clue so have been reluctant to do ANY work on the car until they can get a fault code ! (they've had the car 8 or 9 times and have only fitted a new MAF sensor, which made no difference at all ).
If anyone knows of any problems caused by over filling this engine with oil, or any ideas on the faults discribed i'd be really greatfull. PLEASE HELP, IT'S DRIVING ME MAD !!!!!

It sounds like its trying to regen due to excessive soot/oil. you MUST get the oil lower [within the dip stick limits] otherwise you could shag the DPF and end up £1300.0 poorer. ...........................

 

[fruitloop fr]

The deep resonating noise from the exhaust only happens occassionally when the engine is "stuttering" so could be the dpf trying to regen ( thanks OLDOILER ). This could happen once a week or once a month though and I've never seen the dpf light come on....?

The oil level was never "reduced", it was just left to wear down to normal levels by driving it and I've never noticed ANY smoke from the exhaust, ever. I've done another 30,000 miles since, so has been serviced 3 times, with no difference to mpg.

The power delivery has gone from :- Really noticeable dead spot at 2000 rpm in 1st ( car was "jerky" when pulling away,) with a MAJOR loss of low down torque ( It wouldnt even spin the wheels if i floored it at 2000rpm in 2nd gear on a wet road ! ), and engine felt reluctant to rev, like it was straining against something.

To :- Dead spot at 2000 rpm in 1st barely noticeable but now intermittent, low down torque SLIGHTLY improved, but still felt reluctant to want to rev.

And now :- Dead spot in 1st still barely noticeable and intermittent, low down torque still not as good as when new and still reluctant to want to rev low down. BUT, if i floor it at 2000 rpm in 2nd on a wet road in pulls quite cleanly and doesnt spin the front wheels until just over 3000 rpm then keeps making REALLY GOOD POWER all the way to the limiter !!! It's like the turbo's 1000 rpm out of sync !

It actually drives quite well at the moment, as long as you keep the revs above 2500 rpm.
Throughout ALL of this the mpg has allways been at 38mpg average, if driven with care. 35-36 mpg if not. Nowhere near the 45-47 mpg i could easily get before.
I do approx 25,000 miles a year so it's costing me a fortune.
OLDOILER, Is damaging the dpf something you know WILL happen if over filled with oil or an educated guess ? Would this be easy for an "independent" garage to check ?

 

[Muttley]

It is never wise to leave too much oil in a wet-sump engine. I'm astonished that you left the oil there, after such dramatic indications that it was causing you serious problems. If the oil level dropped noticably at all, that's evidence that the oil was being pulled through the engine inlet and burned (you'd have noticed a leak) That generates soot - it is a bit like overfuelling the engine - which would have been visible out of the back in an older car. But yours has a dpf, the sole purpose of which is to trap soot particles. Oh dear.

How did this happen in the first place? Did you overfill it or was it done by a garage at a service? If the latter, you should have gone back to them straight away.

As soon as you saw it was overfull, you should have drained the excess. Places like Kwik-fit have Pela pumps that remove oil through the dipstick tube - five minutes and you would have stopped any further damage.

I don't have a dpf and a brief google doesn't give me enough detail to do more than guess. But I suspect that Oldoiler has the right idea, and that your dpf is probably clogged. This would normally put one or more warning lights up on the dash panel, though. Were there any warning lights on when this happened?

Do you have the car serviced at a Seat/VAG dealer or an independent? Does the servicing garage have diagnostic equipment that can read the fault codes in the ECU? You needed to know what codes were being logged when the problem first arose. A check of the codes today will tell you something about the fault.

I don't know if a clogged dpf would register on the car's sensors - I don't think there are exhaust pressure sensors each side of the dpf, but I could be wrong. I'm sure that a clogged catalyst won't be registered - and that could still be a problem if the dpf has been overwhelmed.

Ask in the VAG-com section of the forum to see what faults might be registered for a diesel engine with dpf, you might get an answer about whether a clogged dpf or catalyst will be registered.

Otherwise, all you can do is have the exhaust removed, split into its components, and the dpf and catalyst examined. Be prepared to need a whole new exhaust, up to the turbo.

 

[fruitloop fr]

Muttley - thanks for your response.

After the car was returned after the 20,000 mile service (on a friday) as soon as I drove it, on the saturday, I noticed the dead spot in first, so popped back to garage on the monday, after work. Informed garage that it was overfilled with oil, and was running rough - I was told by the service manager that overfilling with oil would not cause a problem & I was to carry on driving. This is a SEAT main dealer!

The car has been back to the same garage 9 times in the past 18 months for the same fault - the first 6 times, all it appears they did was look for fault codes, but no warning lights have ever come up, so they have been unable to diagnose the problem. I got the car back monday, from the 9th visit, and all it appears they have done is test drive it & cleaned it!! They have told me there is nothing they can do until and if a fault code is logged - effectively, they seem to have washed their hands of it!!! I suspect that they knew from the start that the DPF could be shagged (by themselves) and they did not want foot the cost of replacement.

Thanks again Muttley & Oldoiler for your advice - any further information, from anyone, would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Muttley]

Main dealer - that is a serious issue, there are warnings in their maintenance procedures about overfilling. The service manager was flat-out wrong if he told you that overfilling was not an issue.

If they aren't owning up to the fault then I think you'll have to take it up the chain. Seat UK might be the next stop, unless you can find out who the area chief is. But it is a long time ago, and you will have some difficulty proving anything.

You said it was 1.5 to 2 cm overfull, say ½ to ¾ of an inch - that is an awful lot.

The crude diagram below is taken from my own dipstick, yours should be similar

______          __________
      \________/
      
|     |        |       |  
 10mm    16mm     16mm
 _____ __    __ _______
|_____|__XXXX__|_______
      |        |
Abs.  |        |
Min   |        |
               |
      Absolute |
       Maximum |

16mm overfull would be a distance equivalent to the full length of the depressed portion of the stick. Does that agree with what you saw when you looked at your dipstick?

We are meant to keep the oil level on the roughened section in the middle of the depressed bit, and to regard the bevelled ends as absolute minimum and maximum levels. If your car was filled so that the oil level was well above that higher bevel, then it was grossly overfilled, by Seat's own standards.

You noticed a problem straight away and took it back to them. If they did not take out any oil at that point, they have failed to heed their own instructions. However, 30,000 miles later it's going to be difficult to prove anything.

 

[fruitloop fr]

Thanks again for the info Mutley, really appreciated ! I've been totally trusting of what my SEAT main dealer has been telling me, but have still booked the car in with the same garage 8 or 9 times, telling them each time that the fault has been since it was over filled with oil at the 20,000 mile service. The last 3 times i have been supplied a loan vehicle so I'm hoping they have a record of this. It's a company vehicle on a 4 year lease so i'm going to get the lease company involved, knowing what i now know. My company will have records of when the car was booked in for work, but again, proving negligence by the dealer could be very difficult now.

The dipstick is slightly different to yours ,mine has 2 "balls",9-10mm in diameter, indicating upper and lower levels, which are 18mm apart. Assuming this 18mm gap BETWEEN the 2 balls to be the "window" to keep oil levels at. When I checked the levels after the 20,000 mile service it was roughly 5-10mm ABOVE the top of the upper ball. 5-10 mm + the 9-10mm for the "ball" = 15-20mm over filled.
I even drew the SEAT dealer a diagram of where the oil was on the dipstick on one of my visits ,but still they hadnt come up with why it was running rough !
note:- THE OWNERS MANUAL SHOWS THE DIPSTICK TO BE YOUR TYPE, BUT THEORY STILL THE SAME

 

[MJ]

These engine are very sensitive as are the dpfs, using sub-standard normal oil such as run of the mill 10-w40 semi synthetic instead of the fully synthetic long life 3 (which is also low ash oil) can cause issues.

Overfilling can cause the engine to feed on the excess oil and use it as fuel through the breather system. Bare in mind that a normal mist of oil passed into the engine through the breather system will burm without a problem BUT an excessive amount thrown through the intake system then into the cylinders cannot be compressed and can bend the con-rods, like in the event of prolonged turbo bearing failure.

A golf gt tdi recently visited us with a buggered turbo and he had been driving it for 3 months in this condition, after fitting a new turbo the engine was still juddering, running rough and was not right. Upon removal of the head it turned out that 2 of the 4 pistons were sitting deeper in the bores than they should have been and upon removal of the pistons and con-rods it was apparent that the rods were bent due to the ingress of oil.

The compressions will be incorrect and this will effect injection timing - thus knock performance at certain times.
This might not nessesarily be your fault but it can be checked using dealership equipment and removes that from the equasion.

Another thing is that the dpf might be blocked but it would enevitably throw up a fault code as soon as the tolerences are out.
Or the air filter could be blocked, an intake pipe could be split or leaking, the fuel filter may need replacing, the fuel you are using might not be reacting with the dpf correctly - the possibilities are endless and this is why some dealers will turn this kind of work away because they are afraid that they will do more harm than good.

 

[fruitloop fr]

Thanks to every one for there info / views so far, but i'm gonna keep going.........

Ok, so it looks like over filling with oil will definately cause a problem, be it dpf / cat, con rods, clogged intake, loss of power, poor mpg. ? ? ?
The fuel filter was replaced at the 40,000 mile service ( was totally clogged, so made an improvement, but nowhere near a cure. ) and I've checked the air filter previously and it's spotless, I only ever use BP fuel, and the only oil I've ever used is castrol edge (with the correct SAE and VW rating, and recommended for use in VW/AUDI diesel engines fitted with DPF...I had previously been warned that the correct oil in this engine was critical, so double checked before use !)

Either way, I have a vehicle that is still under warranty, that has been to a main dealer 8 times for the same fault (The dealer has had it for a total of 20 days now !) and all they have done in that time is a diagnostic check a few times to look for fault codes, test driven it, replaced a MAF sensor, and cleaned it. At what point do I get a new engine fitted under warranty ???

Would any one out there be able to tell me what the oil capacity with a filter change is, and the SAE/VW rating for a MK1 FR TDI ? (can ya see where I'm going with this one ?)

ANY further input on this would be very appreciated.

 

[PJ BUSA]

I believe the quantity is about 4.25 litres of either VW505 01, 507 00, 506 01.when I had my FR serviced time before last the Bill had charged for 4.5 litres when I checked my oil it was over full .I did take some out ,because on top of engine it says dont overfill with oil. I did tell them it was overfull they said it would be OK, I think they need to check as they add oil in.

 

[MJ]

An oil change on a pd170 would use anywhere in the region of 4.25 - 4.50 litres any more and the sump plug has not been put back in

And it should have castrol long life 3 which i believe is either 5w30s or 5w40s fully synthetic.

 

[fruitloop fr]

Sorry, but I was wanting the oil capacity and SAE ratings for a 1.9 FR TDI 150 cos I was wondering if my dealer had put oil for the 1.9 FR TDI 150 in mine. The levels I had may tie up with the quantities needed for the 1.9 FR and if so, possibly the wrong grade..?

 

[muddyboots]

If it were my car, my next step would be to write to Seat HQ.
Outline the complete history of the case, the services/mileages, which dealer used(s), the symptoms you've had, the fact that it was overfilled with oil at the same times these faults started, the fact you were toldby your dealer it was Ok to drive over-filled, etc etc. Mention how many visits to the dealership you've had and how little they've done.

Hopefully if HQ get involved, things will happen - this worked for me on a couple of occasions when dealers couldn't/wouldn't sort things out under warranty. They got told to sort it out, and they did.

At the very least it means you've documented the fact these faults all exist before your warranty runs out.

 

[muddyboots]

What I would say though, is that some onf those symptoms sound very similar to problems I recently had (a PD130 in my Passat).

Lots of hesitation when accelerating at lower rev ranges (but once up and running it felt reasonably OK, no major power loss), noticeable dip in MPG, and it was noisier from the engine bay.
One the pipes had half popped off the intercooler; where the end of the pipe inserts the intercooler, one of the retaining lugs had worn off and one side had popped out, so the pipe was stuck at an angle to the intercooler. Result - an air/boost leak causing enough loss for the low-speed hesitation, but not enough for a fault code, and no major power loss (I guess the turbo was being made to work harder to compensate for the leak and achieve the desired pressure).

I'd had all sorts of theories and speculation in my mind, but at the end of a day, it was a boost leak. Refitted the pipe in my own special way, and it's been great since - MPG is better than ever !

Trouble is, a number of pipes/joints aren't readily accessible to someone just peering through the bonnet...

Always possible the oil over-filling is coincidental - could be that the dealers removed an intake pipe during the service, and didn't refit it properly. This happened on my Ibiza when the dealer changed the cambelt - they incorrectly refitted one of the boost pipes, it popped off on the way back home and in doing so damaged one of the lugs so it couldn't be refitted securely; of course they denied causing the problem and wanted me to pay for a new pipe....

 

[MJ]

Sorry, but I was wanting the oil capacity and SAE ratings for a 1.9 FR TDI 150 cos I was wondering if my dealer had put oil for the 1.9 FR TDI 150 in mine. The levels I had may tie up with the quantities needed for the 1.9 FR and if so, possibly the wrong grade..?

They both use roughly 4.5 litres and use long life 3.

 

[Alzak]

hmm sounds like i have same problem bought a car 2 weeks ago and when I check oil was above max level the guy who I bought a cae from say its should be like this

Now I experienced same problem loos power in low rev , noisy exhaust

if I drove just 500 miles since I bought it and I will remove some of the oil car will go back to normal or I have to clean,change some part of exhaust system

I do have no lights on dash at all just slighty less power up to 2500 rpm not always and on neutral when You can hear exhaust noise car is on 1000 rpm it will go dow after some time

Help me what I can do now is grat car will dpf delete sort problem out if I can not do anything with this?

 

[Woodge]

My ibiza eco 1.2 has had a history of oil over the max mark this was NOT due to overfill this was due to deisel entering the oil when regenerating this seems now to have been cured by upgrading the ecu for the 3rd time. I am still in contact with seat