gt3071r @1.7 bar made 400bhp

[ryan_s3]

Interesting comments from alot of people who haven't tuned any of the above turbo's! So bill who can map the stock ecu for a real 500bhp? 2.5 bar map sensor, stock maf retained,massively underspec'd injectors because bigger ones cannot be used it's all tosh!
Gt3071r 0.82 - proven 450/460bhp at 2 bar
Gt3076r 0.82 - proven 500-550bhp at 2 bar
This will also shock you a Owens gt30 0.82 hybrid at 1.9 bar mapped by bulmer on motec made 420bhp on dd!
Caney what injectors is the gt30 tt running?

 

[Wilko]

Ryan
There's no doubt that the turbos have the flow capacity, but flow is basically capacity x boost.
An evo has more capacity so requires less boost to get the same flow. At 2 bar a 1.8t will not make more than 450 on pump fuel with a 7500rpm limit.


Bill. I have seen you post on multiple forums that the only change you made to get from 480 to 517 was 007 manifold and r32 tb. Are you now saying that you also changed fp green to red
To get to over 500hp?

 

[str8ballin]

Making 400hp from 300ish g/s of air is doing fairly well. Even if you af is scaled wrong and your engine is at 100%VE, you're moving no more than 310g/s at the power peak around 6700rpm, so if anyone claims you can make more at 1.7 bar at those revs, they are wrong.

There is 50 or so g/s left in the compresser whell on your turbo before you hit max flow, so turn the boost up. 30-32pound of boost should hget you there.

Otherwise get some wilder cams, and move your power peak higer in the rev range. More power for less boost.

28lb of boost at 7500rpm if you could move your power peak (improve engine VE over 6700) should get you to the max flow of the compresser which will give you 450ish hp on a DD

I have been reading up alot about VE etc etc. very interesting!
Ofcourse every engine is different but in general what are these 1.8ts' volumetric effiency like?

Could you tell me how you calculated my engine air flow, e.g the engine wont flow more than 310g/s? From the logs?

Thanks!

 

[str8ballin]

Had a phone call a while ago, been offered my friends old gt35r (0.82 a/r) off his civic its not been on his car long and only ran baby boost (17psi).. He needs a oil cooled only turbo and wants £700 for it.

Im know.... im not going to get it!!
I dont think my bonnet will close anyway! And I dont think I can afford to keep fixing all the parts im going to keep breaking!

But just for comparison.. I think Bill and Ryan you can help me here, when would you expect 1.5bar+ on that turbo with my setup?

And also what kind of power would you be talkin at that boost.

I know its laggy but still on spool its alot of air flow so does get that civic moving.

Its seems im just chasing numbers now but im just not happy with this setup!

 

[caney]

Its seems im just chasing numbers now but im just not happy with this setup!

you were happy when it made 450bhp on jbs rollers thoughhow can you not be happy with 400bhp in a car that weighs nothing!if jbs map it for 2 bar max then you'll get more bhp anyway so why change things

 

[Wilko]

I have been reading up alot about VE etc etc. very interesting!
Ofcourse every engine is different but in general what are these 1.8ts' volumetric effiency like?

Could you tell me how you calculated my engine air flow, e.g the engine wont flow more than 310g/s? From the logs?

Thanks!

6700/60 (rpm/sec) x 1.781/2 (capacity in litres divided by 2 as engine only fills every second rev) x 1.145g/l (density of air at 35C) x 2.7 (boost level) =307.5g/s

This changes quite rapidly with iat, as density of air is a big factor. (1.292*(273)/(273+temp in C) by 50C iat the max flow would be 293g/s

This is at 100% filling capacity of the cylinder, and doesn't take into account that some of the air will be dispplaced by fuel.
fuel at 12:1 would be 25.6g, which has a volume of 36cc. of the 99l available, which is only about 0.04 of the volume, assuming none of it vapuorises (some of it will)

 

[str8ballin]

you were happy when it made 450bhp on jbs rollers thoughhow can you not be happy with 400bhp in a car that weighs nothing!if jbs map it for 2 bar max then you'll get more bhp anyway so why change things

The 453bhp was at AMD technik Rollers never been on jbs rollers still!

I was happy because I thought wow I made 450 @ 6350rpm @ 1.6bar.. I will be on 500hp when I run 2bar @ 7k for sure!

AMD made believe it! They were so suprised too!
They told me if they do another run upto 7K it will prob be near to 480ish, but they allready did 2 didnt want to run it again...

How wrong was i!

 

[str8ballin]

6700/60 (rpm/sec) x 1.781/2 (capacity in litres divided by 2 as engine only fills every second rev) x 1.145g/l (density of air at 35C) x 2.7 (boost level) =307.5g/s

This changes quite rapidly with iat, as density of air is a big factor. (1.292*(273)/(273+temp in C) by 50C iat the max flow would be 293g/s

This is at 100% filling capacity of the cylinder, and doesn't take into account that some of the air will be dispplaced by fuel.
fuel at 12:1 would be 25.6g, which has a volume of 36cc. of the 99l available, which is only about 0.04 of the volume, assuming none of it vapuorises (some of it will)

I know I might be well off but I found this equation to work out the Engine Air Flow..

CFM = 1.781 (Engine CC) x 7000 (Revs) x 90% (VE) x 2.7 (Pr)

divided by 5660 = 535.2 (37.4lb/min)

 

[ibizacupra]

Ryan
There's no doubt that the turbos have the flow capacity, but flow is basically capacity x boost.
An evo has more capacity so requires less boost to get the same flow. At 2 bar a 1.8t will not make more than 450 on pump fuel with a 7500rpm limit.


Bill. I have seen you post on multiple forums that the only change you made to get from 480 to 517 was 007 manifold and r32 tb. Are you now saying that you also changed fp green to red
To get to over 500hp?

different dyno, different figure, Red made >500bhp, as it has recently just done again on the same dyno. (not jbs dyno)

The green before/after @ JBs for just changing to R32 t'body and 007mani did go from 485bhp to 517bhp from 2.2bat boost

Red did not make much more if at all on the other dyno, than the green read @ jbs

we all know dyno lottery. that why I can only compare the same dyno as the red last ran on, and the GT35 which ran on the same dyno, making just about the same power but from a lot less boost. (so far)

 

[ibizacupra]

GT35 on mine, 0.82 a/r hotside, on 1.3bar so far it spooled that far from 4400rpm - then ran out of injector duty cycle so had to rework fuel system since.

 

[str8ballin]

GT35 on mine, 0.82 a/r hotside, on 1.3bar so far it spooled that far from 4400rpm - then ran out of injector duty cycle so had to rework fuel system since.

1.3bar @ 4.4k is very good spool right!
My friends civic hits 1bar @ 5.3k on a 2ltr.

I cant wait to see what your car produces!

 

[Wilko]

so bill, you now have your doubts about the 517 at JBS? on a green? I'd doubt any more than 430-440 on a green.

 

[ibizacupra]

dyno lottery john.. we both know it varies wildly..

 

[20vpolo]

it won't do it mate,speak to jabba they'll tell you.They've just done a TT with a large owens gt30 which made 460bhp i believe.Mine is based on a gt3076r which made 425bhp.Owens have got my turbo at the moment, getting a garrett comp cover with a 3" outlet fitted instead of the hybrid mitsi 2" outlet fitted at present.

I had owns large gt30 based turbo and made 430 bhp and have had it uprated with a larger hot side to make the 3076.

They have proved it can make over 500 bhp on a exige with a 20vT motor ( 1.9) see the drivers reports on there home page.

 

[ryan_s3]

Which is the dyno then bill? Dyno lottery now mystery dyno!
Fp Green will do 460bhp,will struggle to hold more than 1.8bar by redline i'd imagine
Fp Red will do 500bhp,will respond much better to race fuel,intakes,throttle body etc.
As far as Gt35's go on 0.82 housing you'd be looking at 700bhp at around 2.2bar with a very good set-up.I'd be very suprised if a gt35 at 1.3bar could produce 500bhp!

 

[ryan_s3]

500bhp on owens = 450 on DD.
In a 2wd polo how much power do you need!

 

[Wilko]

Which is the dyno then bill? Dyno lottery now mystery dyno!
Fp Green will do 460bhp,will struggle to hold more than 1.8bar by redline i'd imagine
Fp Red will do 500bhp,will respond much better to race fuel,intakes,throttle body etc.
As far as Gt35's go on 0.82 housing you'd be looking at 700bhp at around 2.2bar with a very good set-up.I'd be very suprised if a gt35 at 1.3bar could produce 500bhp!

Ryan
Fp turbos make more on evo fitment than n subaru fitment. Different hot side housings, and posibly cold sides too.
Very similar turbo to a green on mine at the mo with a slightly bigger cold side. Holds 27-28lb to 7000rpm, 24 at 7500rpm.

 

[caney]

I had owns large gt30 based turbo and made 430 bhp and have had it uprated with a larger hot side to make the 3076.

They have proved it can make over 500 bhp on a exige with a 20vT motor ( 1.9) see the drivers reports on there home page.

Hi mate,did you have the .62 hotside?Lee at Owens reckons my turbo will be good for over 500bhp when i get it back

 

[Wilko]

I had owns large gt30 based turbo and made 430 bhp and have had it uprated with a larger hot side to make the 3076.

They have proved it can make over 500 bhp on a exige with a 20vT motor ( 1.9) see the drivers reports on there home page.

500hp on race fuel (102ron,93mon) on owens dyno. The fuels worth 30-40hp, and if it's a happy dyno too, then low 400s again.

Lots of 3076's on voretex (propper garrets, not hybrids) doing low 400whp at 2 bar ish on 1.8t's

1.7bar
http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/album.php?albumid=330&pictureid=906

1.95 bar
http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/album.php?albumid=330&pictureid=907

judgeing by awesomes dynojet, you can add 20-30hp to the wheel figure to give a true fwhp.

So 3076 on pump at 2 bar is <450 on a 1.8t at no more than 7500rpm rev limit. Either make the head breath and sort out the hydraulic tappets, or wind the boost way past 2 bar to get 500hp, and don't expect to do it without race fuel.

 

[caney]

have a read of this then! stock exhaust valves as well
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4291184