Remap semi fail, over boost. FR tdi

[joshy514]

I took my car down to Bill at Badger5 on Wednesday to have a stage 1 remap. The car dyno'd std at 174bhp and about 255 torques iirc. It was over boosting at this point by about .2 bar, which is apparently a common thing and he had seen it before. First map we tried on the car, I think it did a 199 with 313 ft/lb, 2nd and 3rd run I believe it went into limp mode. This was just using fueling and torque limiters I think he said, Bill recommended I did a vnt clean, we had a look on the Internet, and one of his mates had a video up, basically he took the turbo off, stripped it and cleaned the individual parts until the vnt's moved freely. I had a quick research on here, and bought some revive turbo cleaner, ran it through today, following the guide and not a lot has really changed, I also fitted a boost gauge (problem 2) which has told me a couple of times today that the boost has gone off the gauge, it's an auto gauge 30 psi gauge. Which is above 2 bar!! In the end, Bill put a map on where he just added more fuel, it achieved 186 and 279. Noticeable difference, but I wasn't hoping to go there and potentially have to take off a turbo, then pay for more of Bill's time. Obviously this isn't his fault, he did the best he could given the situation, and could have saved me a few pennies in the long run! Does anyone have any ideas what other things could cause my over boosting? The car is as follows, straight pipe, egr delete and Jetex cone. Recently serviced, and inlet was cleaned when I did the egr delete. My plans are now, to take off the dp and spray mr muscle into the turbo, and if this doesn't make a difference I'll take it off fully and do a proper clean. I would really appreciate anybody's input/opinions because I need it sorted by march really.

Problem 2 - the boost gauge I have fitted clicks as it climbs in psi, and down again. I think it may be because I've used the egr feed that comes with the delete, so ill be down to b and q tomorrow or a plumbing place to source another tap, or a nut to use the existing egr pipe thing. There is a video on YouTube of a golf mkIV with the same problem, and he has also used the egr supplied tap, what makes me think this is that every RR I've read the owners have used a boost pipe to acquire the pressure, I'll update tomorrow with my findings about the relocation of the source, if not I will be complaining to halfords, and getting it replaced. They can think again if I'm undoing all my work though!

Cheers for any help, Josh.

 

[Seatmann]

Get rid of the cone as they're pretty pointless anyway, other thing is to get your fingers onto the vnt lever and find out if it's actually sticking or not.

I don't think they should've put any map on the car till it was fixed properly first. It should only spike a little when first boosting then it should settle down and put out the factory figures. It was obviously way over boosting before the map, a PD150 should never read anything like 174bhp as standard.

Personally if it was me I'd have it on the standard map, sort the problem out and make sure the car is tip top then get a custom map.

 

[maxitrol]

as above-don't thing they should have put a map on the car until its running properly .clean the vnt veins out and see how that goes

 

[joshy514]

I said standard, but what I meant was before the maps were played with at all, that's what the car dyno'd when I got there. I appreciate what you both mean, but the 3rd map Bill put on, the car didn't spike any more than standard anyway.... So it wouldn't make a difference if it was std or not...?

 

[James_R]

You'll find its perfectly normal for an ARL engine to pull 160bhp+ when they're completely standard, 175 is nothing unusual either which is why they achieve seemingly massive results post map like 200bhp.

 

[mk4 cupra]

I don't see the cone filter causing any of the problums my self

 

[James_R]

They are prone to heat soak if not properly shielded but its been proven time after time that there are minimal if any gains to be had from fitting open cone filters but the sound pretty sweet

 

[Seatmann]

You'll find its perfectly normal for an ARL engine to pull 160bhp+ when they're completely standard, 175 is nothing unusual either which is why they achieve seemingly massive results post map like 200bhp.

No way bud, unless it's on wonky rollers or it has a fault. It should give out as close as possible to spec or there's something not right.


As for cone filters and the rest, I wouldn't have one anywhere near my car, total waste of time.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=290373

Best one I seen was part of the cone filter jammed in a turbo lol, god knows how it got there but it was hilarious. (Except to the owner of the car)

 

[James_R]

You can have 10 completely standard ARL golfs, Leon's or boras and everyone will pull a different reading and the readings will seldom drop below 160bhp, no faults, no over boost, no issues it's just how they are. If they pull 145 or below then you've either got a dud or a fault.

Same goes for the pd 130s, regularly producing 145bhp+ in completely standard form.

 

[Seatmann]

No man, a PD150 should work out at really close to 150bhp at the crank. I've spent hours and hours on various tdi forums, usually in the tuning sections too and also watched countless youtube vids of PD's on RR's and that's the first time I've heard that.

Besides VW giving away free extra power? Pfft yeh right.

 

[James_R]

It may surprise you to know that not everything posted on the Internet is true.

What's said on forums and what happens in real life are two completely different things.

 

[Seatmann]

Yeh but you're saying that a whole selection of cars that all use identical injectors, maps, turbos, engines in fact everything, they're all built in exactly the same way using the same parts and technology and somehow they can produce anything from 150 -170bhp? Does that sound right to you? Really?

Maybe the odd 1 or 2 bhp here and there but you're talking 10-20bhp which tbh sounds totally impossible.

Don't you think?

I understand the total BS you get online, plenty of it around that's for sure but I also speak to other trusted people too including tuners.

 

[James_R]

Yeh but you're saying that a whole selection of cars that all use identical injectors, maps, turbos, engines in fact everything, they're all built in exactly the same way using the same parts and technology and somehow they can produce anything from 150 -170bhp? Does that sound right to you? Really?

Maybe the odd 1 or 2 bhp here and there but you're talking 10-20bhp which tbh sounds totally impossible.

Don't you think?

I understand the total BS you get online, plenty of it around that's for sure but I also speak to other trusted people too including tuners.

So for the 5 or so years the ARL engine was made they only produced one batch of turbos, one batch of injectors, one batch of heads, one batch of blocks and only one version of unupdated software all on the same day, by the same people, under the same conditions and they'll all run in and produce 150bhp dead on?

There have been different versions and revisions of each part and software re-writes particularly between the mk4 golf and mk1 leon.

150 is a base figure that the manufacturer, in this case VW AG have had to quote as a minimum, if they failed to meet the minimum they'd be guilty of false advertising but if they exceed it then whose going to complain?

The other thing to consider is emissions, the newer vehicles may have failed emissions tests and the power increased to help efficiency.

I'm not going to start name dropping but collectively between myself, other people I consider "in the know" and other people I have discussed this with i.e tuners, file writers, seat techs, seat technical, actual vw representatives all acknowledge that the pd engines exceed their quoted power figures.

Now you can put it down to dodgy rollers or incorrect readings but that'd mean almost everyone's rolling roads are incorrect surely?

Another thing to note; bentley never quote the actual outputs of their engines as they're all hand built so every different one produces a slightly different power - same cars, same engines, different aged parts, different people building them, different working conditions still VW AG.

 

[mk4 cupra]

So for the 5 or so years the ARL engine was made they only produced one batch of turbos, one batch of injectors, one batch of heads, one batch of blocks and only one version of unupdated software all on the same day, by the same people, under the same conditions and they'll all run in and produce 150bhp dead on?

There have been different versions and revisions of each part and software re-writes particularly between the mk4 golf and mk1 leon.

150 is a base figure that the manufacturer, in this case VW AG have had to quote as a minimum, if they failed to meet the minimum they'd be guilty of false advertising but if they exceed it then whose going to complain?

The other thing to consider is emissions, the newer vehicles may have failed emissions tests and the power increased to help efficiency.

I'm not going to start name dropping but collectively between myself, other people I consider "in the know" and other people I have discussed this with i.e tuners, file writers, seat techs, seat technical, actual vw representatives all acknowledge that the pd engines exceed their quoted power figures.

Now you can put it down to dodgy rollers or incorrect readings but that'd mean almost everyone's rolling roads are incorrect surely?

Another thing to note; bentley never quote the actual outputs of their engines as they're all hand built so every different one produces a slightly different power - same cars, same engines, different aged parts, different people building them, different working conditions still VW AG.

Well said

Most car makers run the same rulein

 

[Seatmann]

I can accept a bit of extra poke from a standard car but I cannot accept that you would get anything like 170bhp from the factory. That does not make any sense at all no matter how many updates there were.

That's my problem with the whole thing, an extra 20bhp from a standard car?

 

[James_R]

If they increased output to 165bhp in the back ground without mention then what's an extra 5-10bhp going to matter?

 

[ibizacupra]

I can accept a bit of extra poke from a standard car but I cannot accept that you would get anything like 170bhp from the factory. That does not make any sense at all no matter how many updates there were.

That's my problem with the whole thing, an extra 20bhp from a standard car?

yes.. I have not once seen a healthy Pd130/150 make 130/150bhp respectively... Always more apart from one PD130 which was fecked.. and made 130bhp

The spread varies on PD130, dynoing 140-145bhp std, PD150 I have seen 165-175bhp Std
Std as in maps std, some had filters etc nothing uber modded

In contrast, Beemer diesels make just about their claimed power..

I am not alone in seeing this.
Petrol 1.8ts make std power on my dyno.. If they are all healthy..

PD's always higher

thats what I see anyhows

 

[Seatmann]

Lol I'm still not convinced but I'll look into it more.

This info makes the PD160 irrelevant though and also means with the same map as another car and producing more power than the other car the components will be seriously stressed out. I can accept software updates and such but their not going to fit bigger injectors and turbos from the factory.
A good example is the PD140 and 170 16valve engines, the PD140 is usually preferred as it can take more where as the 170 is near its limit already, why? Why hasn't VW not fitted it with bigger and better parts?
What about that newer one that keeps throwing its con rod through the block? Why do PD's still kill their cams?
I mean if VW are that caring and wonderful and willing to go overkill on the PD150 why do they have so many unaddressed issues?
It just does not add up for me, not logical but like I said, I'm willing to obtain further info and admit I'm wrong openly, I don't mind that.

 

[James_R]

Lol I'm still not convinced but I'll look into it more.

This info makes the PD160 irrelevant though and also means with the same map as another car and producing more power than the other car the components will be seriously stressed out. - Why? if they can cope with being modded to 200+bhp without shitting themselves why would they with an extra 5-20? PD160s might run closer to 180 but theres very few about in comparrison to the likes of the 130/150.

I can accept software updates and such but their not going to fit bigger injectors and turbos from the factory. - not bigger but revised versions of injectors might have a better flow pattern, revised turbos might be more efficient etc

A good example is the PD140 and 170 16valve engines, the PD140 is usually preferred as it can take more where as the 170 is near its limit already, why? Why hasn't VW not fitted it with bigger and better parts? - dont know what your on about here? people preffer the 140 as it comes without a dpf, has bosch edc16 management and is more widely available. The 170 had different injectors, ecu, turbo and the additional dpf.

The 170 was a huge **** up using siemens management, poor injectors, flawed dpfs, electronic turbo actuator etc, theyre not pushed to the edge of thier limit as they've been tuned to well over 200bhp without catastophic failure, the limiting factor has always been the dpf and the reliability crushed by the crappy injectors.

What about that newer one that keeps throwing its con rod through the block? - BXE engines? just the last run of the bunch with costs cut everywhere.

Why do PD's still kill their cams? - costs cut or incorrect maintenance.

I mean if VW are that caring and wonderful and willing to go overkill on the PD150 why do they have so many unaddressed issues? - i'm fairly sure it wasnt their intention for it to produce more power and it wouldnt be intheir interest for it to, purely accidental.

It just does not add up for me, not logical but like I said, I'm willing to obtain further info and admit I'm wrong openly, I don't mind that.

search away theres plenty of happy pd 130/150 owners out there.

 

[joshy514]

Type in thore racing leon tdi mifflerectomy on YouTube, that one dyno's at 148 at the flywheel I think, obviously the dump will have an affect on the results but still, it's not 24 bhp over the stated factory amount.