Anti Roll Bars

[lordgibbness]

Cool, well thanks for the info Willie - always interesting to keep abreast of your track outings of course!

Phil, let us know when your 23mm front ARB is on - would be great to hear what you think of it compared to your 21mm OEM bar.

Also, do you guys know of anyone who has put a 25mm front ARB on the LCR - would be interesting to hear from them as well...

 

[Pabs]

I THINK, IIRC, I had a 23mm on front, and 25mm on rear of my LC. I had the H&R kit fitted, if that helps.

I never went nuts on the "testing" side of things, it certainly helped to stiffen up the car, but I seem to remember having more understeer from the larger front bar.

HTH

 

[lordgibbness]

I THINK, IIRC, I had a 23mm on front, and 25mm on rear of my LC. I had the H&R kit fitted, if that helps.

I never went nuts on the "testing" side of things, it certainly helped to stiffen up the car, but I seem to remember having more understeer from the larger front bar.

HTH

Hi Pabs, don't want to seem like I'm following your every move or anything but was it actually 23mm or 25mm at the front?

http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1007083#post1007083

I've been digging around some old threads.

 

[Pabs]

well i've got a stalker. lol

To be honest mate, I don't remember. I always thought that the rear ARB was BIGGER than the front, otherwise it'd understeer a LOT worse than it would as standard.

Hence why i thought 23mm front, 25mm rear. I could be wrong though!
I just opted for the H&R arb kit, that was put together for the Leon/golf mk4 platform.

 

[lordgibbness]

Hmm, heard a couple of mentions about stiffening up the front would cause some undesteer but never really heard anyone say it has affected them. I believe Rudd had a 25mm ARB up front and was really happy with it. Will have to see if he leaves a posting at some point on here...

Willie, did you find an understeer problem stiffening up the front ARB? Can you go too far do you think, adding ARBs, braces, etc. Brace was a great improvement to my current setup.

 

[Pabs]

yeh, but i think the point is, when you increase the strength of the front one, you counter-act that by putting on a bigger one at the rear too.

Increase Front ARB thickness/strength = more understeer
Increase Rear ARB thickness/strength = more oversteer

I don't know of anyone who only swapped the front one over. Everyone I know did the rear at the same time.

 

[lordgibbness]

Yep, sorry I thought you were saying you get understeer regardless, just by having a larger front ARB installed.

This is really what I'm trying to gather from as many people as possible (as I can't test them myself) - which front ARB to get (will be either 23mm or 25mm) and then which supporting rear ARB to go with it (probably 25mm).

 

[Ronin225]

I am running 25 and 28mm neuspeeds with OEM suspension and S3 brace
I used to find when getting legal speeds on twisty roads the back felt loose and did what it wanted to
Having just had 4 new assymetrics fitted too i have been throwing it about a bit and am a very long way off really testing its capabilities.
Main things that stop me really going at it are the fact i am on a public road not a track and i am only small in the LCRs quite unbolstered seats and get thrown around viciously
Since fitting them the car feels very composed regardless of speed and always feels controllable and never seems to get out of hand
If i was to spend again it would be the same setup again

 

[Willie]

Yep, sorry I thought you were saying you get understeer regardless, just by having a larger front ARB installed.

This is really what I'm trying to gather from as many people as possible (as I can't test them myself) - which front ARB to get (will be either 23mm or 25mm) and then which supporting rear ARB to go with it (probably 25mm).

Also remember by fitting a 25mm Rear ARB this is supporting a torsion beam which is already built into the rear subframe.

I am running 25 and 28mm neuspeeds with OEM suspension and S3 brace
I used to find when getting legal speeds on twisty roads the back felt loose and did what it wanted to
Having just had 4 new assymetrics fitted too i have been throwing it about a bit and am a very long way off really testing its capabilities.
Main things that stop me really going at it are the fact i am on a public road not a track and i am only small in the LCRs quite unbolstered seats and get thrown around viciously
Since fitting them the car feels very composed regardless of speed and always feels controllable and never seems to get out of hand
If i was to spend again it would be the same setup again

Another very good point I forgot about. I've had a CG lock http://www.cg-lock.co.uk/app/performance/ for three years ish. this has aloud me to fully concentrate on getting the best out of the handling of the car without worrying about being thrown about in my seat. This is probably a better mod than the ARB's/Strutt braces themselves.
Rob

The only times I've felt big understeer on the LCR is pressing on in the wet with the P Zero tyres. When the leap to GY's was made understeer has only been induced on very tight corners on the track on Sunday and on the hair pin yesterday. As you have made the leap to good tyres then I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[Ruddmeister]

Also, do you guys know of anyone who has put a 25mm front ARB on the LCR - would be interesting to hear from them as well...

Erm, yes.....me

25mm front / 28mm rear and strut brace

Although I confess this was also with uprated coilovers, although they only lowered the car 15-20mm they were a considerable upgrade in quality from the OEM kit and must have had an affect on the handling too.

I was told the 25mm front ARB would cause massive understeer, in the wet people told me the car would be as responsive as a supertanker. I never found that

The only time I found the setup 'wierd' was OEM front ARB and the rest of the setup as above (28mm rear and coilovers etc) the car was trying to roll and the front and solid at the rear......felt very disjointed feeling.

I think if you keep things in rough proportion

25/25
25/28
23/25 etc

You won't go far wrong.

The other point is that if you do buy a Neuspeed rear ARB there are 3 bolt holes which give some adjustability in terms of soft/med/harder settings.

I was also warned 25/28mm setup would be way too uncomfortable....all I can say is that in about 35k of motoring I only got one complaint from the passengers and that was 4 up with luggage on the way home from Airport crashing through a nasty pot hole. Otherwise the car was never anything other than comfortable.

I loved the way the car handled in the end, very neutral with high levels of grip and progressive rear end breakaway. The oversteer had to be provoked and could be reigned in with just a slight lift of power and a bit of corrective steering......always predictable and never dangerous. I did give some Honda Civic drivers a scare with the new setup but most fun was chasing a Scooby RB5 to the Goodwood festival of Speed, he wasn;t happy I could keep up on the bends and overtake on the straights

My other golden rule for all leons was good tyres on the rear not the front.....learn't after a 70mph encounter with armco and a Mercedes Van in a 20VT Cupra

EDIT - One other thing was that I also added 10mm spacers on each corner as well (Mainly because I changed the wheels and needed caliper clearance) I don;t know what affect this had on handling (mainly because I couldn't remove them and still fit bthe wheels) but I guess this also helped the handling with a slightly wider track

 

[lordgibbness]

Another very good point I forgot about. I've had a CG lock http://www.cg-lock.co.uk/app/performance/ for three years ish. this has aloud me to fully concentrate on getting the best out of the handling of the car without worrying about being thrown about in my seat. This is probably a better mod than the ARB's/Strutt braces themselves.

That seatbelt lock mechanism looks quite useful Willie. You usually use it when driving on the roads or track only?

The only times I've felt big understeer on the LCR is pressing on in the wet with the P Zero tyres. When the leap to GY's was made understeer has only been induced on very tight corners on the track on Sunday and on the hair pin yesterday. As you have made the leap to good tyres then I wouldn't worry about it.

Yep very good tyres and I agree they are well worth spending the money on.

My other golden rule for all leons was good tyres on the rear not the front.....learn't after a 70mph encounter with armco and a Mercedes Van in a 20VT Cupra

Indeed, I just wish I could get this through to more people...

 

[lordgibbness]

I am running 25 and 28mm neuspeeds with OEM suspension and S3 brace
I used to find when getting legal speeds on twisty roads the back felt loose and did what it wanted to
Having just had 4 new assymetrics fitted too i have been throwing it about a bit and am a very long way off really testing its capabilities.
Since fitting them the car feels very composed regardless of speed and always feels controllable and never seems to get out of hand
If i was to spend again it would be the same setup again

So you wouldn't say fitting the 25mm arb up front has made it too stiff at all?

I am interested as to why OEMs fit the front roll bar only in a lot of cases, yet when people upgrade they uprate the front one and fit an even stiffer rear bar. So going from 19/0 to 25/28 for example. You'd think that having a setup more like 25/22 would be better?

Does anyone know the OEM ARB setups front and back for cars like the R32, S3, Focus RS (Mk1 and Mk2) as they are all grippy flat cornering cars (especially the Focus)?

 

[lordgibbness]

The only time I found the setup 'wierd' was OEM front ARB and the rest of the setup as above (28mm rear and coilovers etc) the car was trying to roll and the front and solid at the rear......felt very disjointed feeling.

I think if you keep things in rough proportion

25/25
25/28
23/25 etc

You won't go far wrong.

Yeah I think creating an overly stiff rear is really going the wrong way with the setup from what I've been reading. The geocities article is quite interesting stating that the best way to setup the car is to start from the front and then set up the rear to follow. They also go on to say that a 23/25 or 25/28 setup are both very good, and neither of them have found an increase in understeer when uprating the front ARB.

Infact they comment on the larger front ARB actually decreasing understeer because it gives the car better cornering ability.

The comment I found interesting, however, was this one:

On the GTi,  that 22mm front bar coupled with the
GTi's 28mm rear bar resulted in somewhat unstable handling with
a tendancy to snap-spin at the limits,  and was less effective in
controlling body lean especially in slaloms and quick transitions
and it would hang the tail out on my favorite off/onramps.  That's
too dangerous for the average driver who's not accustomed to
driving a tail-happy car.  Re-installing the big 25mm [front] bar restored
flatter cornering and i'm absolutely convinced it's neccessary to
keep the front flat first and foremost.

So I think you're right about keeping things in proportion front to back.

Also, how much of an effect do the settings on the rear ARB have?

 

[Willie]

That seatbelt lock mechanism looks quite useful Willie. You usually use it when driving on the roads or track only?


Yep very good tyres and I agree they are well worth spending the money on.


Indeed, I just wish I could get this through to more people...

I use the CG all the time and as stated above feel naked when in a car without one. You would be surprised how much you move about in the seat and how much you change your cornering speed because you know you will slide about. Everything changes when you fit one of these

So you wouldn't say fitting the 25mm arb up front has made it too stiff at all?

I am interested as to why OEMs fit the front roll bar only in a lot of cases, yet when people upgrade they uprate the front one and fit an even stiffer rear bar. So going from 19/0 to 25/28 for example. You'd think that having a setup more like 25/22 would be better?

Does anyone know the OEM ARB setups front and back for cars like the R32, S3, Focus RS (Mk1 and Mk2) as they are all grippy flat cornering cars (especially the Focus)?

Remember the rear of the S3 and R32 is very different to ours. The front R32 bar is either 21 or 23mm with the same front end set up as ours

Yeah I think creating an overly stiff rear is really going the wrong way with the setup from what I've been reading. The geocities article is quite interesting stating that the best way to setup the car is to start from the front and then set up the rear to follow. They also go on to say that a 23/25 or 25/28 setup are both very good, and neither of them have found an increase in understeer when uprating the front ARB.

Infact they comment on the larger front ARB actually decreasing understeer because it gives the car better cornering ability.

The comment I found interesting, however, was this one:

On the GTi,  that 22mm front bar coupled with the
GTi's 28mm rear bar resulted in somewhat unstable handling with
a tendancy to snap-spin at the limits,  and was less effective in
controlling body lean especially in slaloms and quick transitions
and it would hang the tail out on my favorite off/onramps.  That's
too dangerous for the average driver who's not accustomed to
driving a tail-happy car.  Re-installing the big 25mm [front] bar restored
flatter cornering and i'm absolutely convinced it's neccessary to
keep the front flat first and foremost.

So I think you're right about keeping things in proportion front to back.

Also, how much of an effect do the settings on the rear ARB have?

TBH the best way to set up the Leon is to start at the rear.
Naturally there is too much understeer and body roll, the rear bar sorts out the understeer and the front strutt brace and ARB upgrade sorts out the body roll

 

[Ruddmeister]

Also, how much of an effect do the settings on the rear ARB have?

After I had found a setting I liked (first time) I didn't change it so can't comment, it was pretty much the 'if it ain't broke.....' school of engineering


I think this comment....

'Re-installing the big 25mm [front] bar restored flatter cornering and i'm absolutely convinced it's neccessary to keep the front flat first and foremost'

Is certainly on the right lines, my simple brain thinking that FWD cars pulling themselves through the corners the more contact the wheels have with the tarmac the better......the flatter the car the better the loads are spread over both tyres than one .........you see rally cars (FWD) pulling themselves out of huge slides etc...

I know this is only true up to a point though from a handling and grip perspective

On a seperate note I have driven an LCR car with an uprated rear ARb and a Quaife ATB diff and this setup worked brialliantly..... although the idea of keeping your right foot planted to the floor to gain traction (make the diff work) took some getting my head around. Mind you at £1100 ish fitted the diff should work well

 

[Ronin225]

I have to agree with ruddmeister that even with 25/28 setup i dont think any of the ride comfort has been lost at all
I have also set the rear bar to its middle setting and left it alone, same principle, its good so dont play around and possibly ruin it

 

[lordgibbness]

My gut feeling from all comments is to get the stiffer front bar (I'm with the thinking that setting up the front as well as possible is the best route to take) and try and find a rear ARB to match.

I need to do some more research as I'm still interested why people go for 25/28 rather than 25/25 for example when the OEM setup has a stiffer front bar.

 

[Ronin225]

As i said i felt the back end very unconnected to the rest of the car when cornering and as speed increased it felt worse.
Just the addition of a bar will help lots but i want the back to feel composed and planted
I also want to do some trackdays so i thought 28mm and there are 3 settings so you can fine tune the bigger bar quite easily

 

[Ruddmeister]

I need to do some more research as I'm still interested why people go for 25/28 rather than 25/25 for example when the OEM setup has a stiffer front bar.

I was stiffening the front using a strut brace and ARB, rear was ARb only hence why I selected 25/28mm

I couldn;t carry out tests and don't have the mental ability to calculate the difference between 3mm of bar thickness Vs struct brace but in my mind it kind of evened out

If anything I was adding slightly more stifness to the front but the engine bay is the main weakness in the car shell and hence the most movement

 

[lordgibbness]

Yeah and it does seems quite a common setup with the VAG cars, as does 22/25 and 23/25.