1.2TSi - rattle on cold start

[znww5]

I'm hoping that somebody else has come across this!

After my 2011 1.2TSi has been left overnight, or for quite a few hours, it makes a pronounced rattling noise for the first few seconds of running.

My immediate thought was timing chain tensioner, but when the local SEAT garage replaced that, the problem persisted. They are now replacing the chain as well, but as I seem to have to lead them by the hand, I was wondering if anybody else has come across this - and what the fix was?

 

[Jarre]

I used to get this with my old 1.2tsi Leon. Never found a cure for it, but it never seemed to be an issue.

 

[NetworkMan]

Sometimes after a cold start there is a noise before the hydraulic tappets are fully charged with oil. Could it be that?

On the occasions when I've heard it it's more of a rasp than a rattle. I only say that it's the tappets because the handbook says this can happen and it seems a plausible story!

Sorry you are still having trouble Znww. Mine is also early 2011 and - touch wood - has been a dream with almost no trouble at all, though it is very low mileage and manual. I seem to recall yours is auto.

 

[Jarre]

I nearly suggested the tappets, I believe that's what I put mine down to. The only real issue I had with mine was a leaking injector which was eventually replaced under warranty

 

[znww5]

Thanks for the replies guys, I had missed the comment regarding cold start noise on p132 of the manual.

However, I assumed (hoped?) that the dealer would have heard enough 1.2TSi engines to know what is normal and what isn't - and they seemed to think this noise wasn't.

I was surprised that the new chain tensioner didn't fix things, and unconvinced that a new chain would make much difference, however that's the path the dealer is following. If that plan proves fruitless then the only other hydraulic system which could behave like that is, as you all say, the valve lifters.

I don't know how one establishes what is normal and abnormal start-up chatter, certainly the 1.2TSi loan car I had a while ago didn't make the noise, so we shall see.

And NetMan - the score so far is: 3 ignition packs, 3 sets of HT leads, 1 new DSG gearbox, 1 timing chain and 1 tensioner. The car has been recovered 4 times and, despite several long holidays at the local SEAT garage, is still playing up.

It rather undermines my confidence in German engineering as all the Spanish bits work OK!

 

[znww5]

Got the car back yesterday and the start from cold noise (a very pronounced rattle) has gone. Changing the tensioner on its own didn't fix it, but changing the chain as well was successful.

If this means that the chain had stretched over 36000 miles perhaps they should stop making them out of plasticine!

Thanks for everybody's input on here - much appreciated.

 

[NetworkMan]

....... and very feeble plasticene too since the tensioner is supposed to take up stretch in the chain - or so I thought!

This surely can't be normal since VAG couldn't afford the warranty costs. It must have been a duff chain.

 

[znww5]

Yep, I rather thought that was what the tensioner was supposed to do too! And given that it is hydraulic, you'd imagine that it might take up more slack than the traditional mechanical tensioner.

As for warranty costs, the new gearbox came to £3,000 and I imagine that the timing chain would be around the £250 mark, plus whatever the numerous ignition packs and HT leads come to. Obviously these costs are retail prices - as opposed to internal warranty billing - but I suspect that this particular vehicle has been quite a loss-maker for SEAT.

 

[znww5]

Just want to add this to the saga. Changing the timing chain AND the tensioner has solved the 'start-up rattle' issue.

However, there has also been an unexpected bonus in that the fuel consumption has improved by about 10%. That's measuered by the brim to brim method, not using the on board computer.

I can only assume that the fuel management system must have been chasing and compensating for endless variations in valve timing due to the stretched timing chain.

So if you have the start-up death rattle, get it fixed

 

[adamstreeter]

Is this something that can be changed under warranty on request?

 

[znww5]

I don't know how successful you would be if you are symptomless. If there is a loud and pronounced rattle for a couple of seconds on start-up when the car has been standing for hours (eg overnight) then they should fix it as it is a fault.

As well as the fuel savings, it avoids the risk of the timing chain jumping a tooth.

 

[J400uk]

Its possible the old timing chain may have stretched and become slack, which would explain the fuel economy. Same problem is very common on the 1.4 TSI but its quite rare on the 1.2 TSI.

 

[Adam4D]

Before replacing the timing chain for a new modified stronger version dealers have to check for valve to piston damage, if the rattle is very bad the valves can kiss the piston and dealers are told to replace the engine. Have replaced quite a few at my work place since this engine came out.

 

[znww5]

Adam - that's very interesting, thanks for posting. Presumably they do a boroscopic inspection in the first instance, although I am slightly surprised that it (I assume) is cheaper to replace the engine rather than rebuild it.

Had that been the case I would have ended up with an entierly new drive chain - the DSG gearbox had already been replaced a few months previously!

 

[RUM4MO]

A guy at work has been complaining to his Seat dealer about the 1.2TSI engine in a Leon, eventually the dealer has heard it and its now waiting for a set of bits to fix this "known engine issue". I had been suggesting tensioner etc for a while without hearing it, but it was was only noisy now and again so it has taken the dealer months to hear it - why should this be with a "known engine issue" ?

So, now stronger chain, does that mean that the chain pulleys will now suffer hooking after a few thousand miles - or are they already made of proper stuff!

 

[Adam4D]

It's the chain that stretches, the new modified chain is much stronger.

Tell your friend to tell his seat dealer to send a diss report asking about the tpi (technical bulletin for modified chains for audi a1 and a3 1.2 engine.

Replacing of the tensioner only does not fix this rattle.

 

[adamstreeter]

Just as an update on my 1.2 tsi, took it into dealer for first mot and asked that they look at the rattle on mine. They replaced the chain snd tensioner under warrenty with new spec versions. The car was in for service just over a month ago and was not picked up so my recommendation is to make sure you ask them to specifically look into the issue for you. I don't believe it is an official recall but I had to sign a document for the warrenty repair and I flicked through it and was a procedure sheet for this issue and things they need to xhexk whilst doing the job....

 

[Adam4D]

Glad you got it all replaced and didn't get fobbed off like a few others have been

 

[adamstreeter]

It was at SMC-Exeter if otgers in the area need similar work done. Car seems to run better now and engine less noisy....hoping the mpg will rise too like others have found!

 

[znww5]

It's not only the mpg which improves! If you are running on the computerised service indicator (proper name escapes me for the moment), the service intervals seem to get longer too.

Deffo worth getting the work done.