I would'nt say guaranteed. I friend bought a CTR brand new about 10 years ago. With around 10K on the clock pulling away in first changed to second and bang. He got out to find oil and a lump of alloy on the floor. Turns out he had a piston sized hole in his block. New engine under waranty. Don't belive Honder when they say they have never had a failed V-tec engine.
300lb-ft on standard rods is the 'limit'? think again.
- Thread starter Dan1720v
- Start date
I would'nt say guaranteed. I friend bought a CTR brand new about 10 years ago. With around 10K on the clock pulling away in first changed to second and bang. He got out to find oil and a lump of alloy on the floor. Turns out he had a piston sized hole in his block. New engine under waranty. Don't belive Honder when they say they have never had a failed V-tec engine.
I think Honda's claims are more that the VTEC system has never been attributed as the cause of an engine failure, not that they've never had one go bang
I think Honda's claims are more that the VTEC system has never been attributed as the cause of an engine failure, not that they've never had one go bang
Yep, which is much like saying you've never had a blown engine caused by a failed wiper motor, means very little really
You can't even begin to compare a v-tec to a 1.8t because they are completely different in the way they produce power. Torque I's what kills the rods not so much bhp. A Honda has low torque and all power I's at top end where as a turbo charged car has much more torque sustained through a large area of the rev range. You can't just bolt on a turbo to a v-tec and expect the standard internals to sustain the same abuse as without a turbo. Honda has gained reliability issues by avoiding the use of a turbo with the clever v-tec system. But we all know true power lies I'n forced induction but it does come at a price ( forged engine ) id rather have torque at the ready rather than thrash my car just to pick up a pint of milk. Not slating Honda at all just I perfer the way my 1.8t delivers power over a v-tec as a daily runner. Track days however a v-tec does come to life.
Warning: even bone-stock 1.8Ts, and not even AUQs, but puny 1.8T/150s, can end up with bent rods due to detonation.
Counter-example: 1.8T/150, stock mapping, from the USA, recovered in non-running state by current user. Found one bent rod, damaged turbo impeller due to worn turbo bearing: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5692955-1.8T-K03-Bent-Fins-With-Pics&p=77506873
~Nautilus
Counter-example: 1.8T/150, stock mapping, from the USA, recovered in non-running state by current user. Found one bent rod, damaged turbo impeller due to worn turbo bearing: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5692955-1.8T-K03-Bent-Fins-With-Pics&p=77506873
~Nautilus
On the 1.8T/150 quoted, more like due to a combination of poor fuels (US regular fuels range from 87 octane to 91 octane - add 3 points to get the number in our system of measurement), neglect and poor driving (not matching speed and rpm, forcing the turbo by putting foot down in 5th). Hydrolock hits the piston face and rod, doesn't bend the turbo impeller like that.
As Corky Bell put in in Maximum Boost, Chapter 1, pages 7-9: in any 4-stroke engine, the strongest force on a rod and the bearing of the same rod is tensile/inertial, not the compressive force of the burning gas. The higher the rpm, the stronger the tensile force on the rod. Compressive force is always lower, just to equalize them stock power should be increased by 50%. (Which means at least 337.5hp for a BAM engine.) But leave some detonation into the picture, and the rod goes to the burning Hell of the engines - forces in an uncontrolled, explosive burning at the wrong moment during the piston motion, like piston going up at the moment of the detonation, destroy anything, regardless how strong it's built.
Food for thought: most broken rods reported here and on VWVortex happened during a prolonged high-torque stunt at high rpm. Full boost in 5th or 4th gear, acceleration from low rpms in high gear, running full boost while climbing a long ramp, and so on. K03 and K04 turbos usually run horribly hot, 1.8T engine has high compression, and, due to the fuel prices we all know and suffer, mapping aimed to provide an acceptable fuel economy, therefore lean burn. Sooner or later, it will detonate, unless we take some countermeasures: highest octane fuel available, cooling, cooler sparkplugs, matching the speed with rpms and so on.
~Nautilus
As Corky Bell put in in Maximum Boost, Chapter 1, pages 7-9: in any 4-stroke engine, the strongest force on a rod and the bearing of the same rod is tensile/inertial, not the compressive force of the burning gas. The higher the rpm, the stronger the tensile force on the rod. Compressive force is always lower, just to equalize them stock power should be increased by 50%. (Which means at least 337.5hp for a BAM engine.) But leave some detonation into the picture, and the rod goes to the burning Hell of the engines - forces in an uncontrolled, explosive burning at the wrong moment during the piston motion, like piston going up at the moment of the detonation, destroy anything, regardless how strong it's built.
Food for thought: most broken rods reported here and on VWVortex happened during a prolonged high-torque stunt at high rpm. Full boost in 5th or 4th gear, acceleration from low rpms in high gear, running full boost while climbing a long ramp, and so on. K03 and K04 turbos usually run horribly hot, 1.8T engine has high compression, and, due to the fuel prices we all know and suffer, mapping aimed to provide an acceptable fuel economy, therefore lean burn. Sooner or later, it will detonate, unless we take some countermeasures: highest octane fuel available, cooling, cooler sparkplugs, matching the speed with rpms and so on.
~Nautilus
Sorry didn't mean hydrolock bends the impeller, high turbo rpm's do that!
Good advice on the rest though.
Good advice on the rest though.
It takes alot of det to fully melt a piston. However only takes one ignition cylcle to produce over the desired amount of cylinder pressure and off goes a rod
Which is worse is the fact that sometimes ECU does not register a signal from the knock sensor or a misfire count to pull timing back. Now it's running well, the next second it goes out with a bang.
Piston is much more solid compared to a rod. Rod goes first, then piston ring, then piston itself, if the engine can still run to this point.
Reading sparkplugs each time they are removed (if you use copper plugs like NGK BKR7E, each 2 oil changes or 20k kms) gives an idea of how the engine runs. Ideally they should be the color of tobacco or wet sand, and clean. If the plug has signs of melting, you can be sure your exhaust valve is even worse and the combustion chamber is a mess.
In a hot-running engine like an 1.8T, slight overfueling (written in the map) or a water-methanol injector should provide more progressive burning and lower the chances of detonation. There is a fuel pressure regulator rated for 3.5bar (compared to a 3.0bar in an AUQ and 4.0bar on BAMs and Revo-mapped Stage 2 AUQs) which can be fitted in minutes by hand, if you can live with less than ideal fuel economy.
A fellow with an insanely modded WRX STi tried the Devils Own water-methanol injector on his car and discovered that ECU pulled timing so far back before that just fitting the meth system (to inject at 9psi of boost and above) recovered 33 lost hp.
~Nautilus
Piston is much more solid compared to a rod. Rod goes first, then piston ring, then piston itself, if the engine can still run to this point.
Reading sparkplugs each time they are removed (if you use copper plugs like NGK BKR7E, each 2 oil changes or 20k kms) gives an idea of how the engine runs. Ideally they should be the color of tobacco or wet sand, and clean. If the plug has signs of melting, you can be sure your exhaust valve is even worse and the combustion chamber is a mess.
In a hot-running engine like an 1.8T, slight overfueling (written in the map) or a water-methanol injector should provide more progressive burning and lower the chances of detonation. There is a fuel pressure regulator rated for 3.5bar (compared to a 3.0bar in an AUQ and 4.0bar on BAMs and Revo-mapped Stage 2 AUQs) which can be fitted in minutes by hand, if you can live with less than ideal fuel economy.
A fellow with an insanely modded WRX STi tried the Devils Own water-methanol injector on his car and discovered that ECU pulled timing so far back before that just fitting the meth system (to inject at 9psi of boost and above) recovered 33 lost hp.
~Nautilus
That's bonkers that a rod would or could bend just with a little petroleum bang, another reason for me to stick with the tdi. I can't believe they would bend that easy though.
Check this guys nutty machine torque, on an old engine that isn't supposed to take more than 170 bhp!
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=354947
There's some beauties on that site, pics of destructed engines that is, one guy was just pulling away from a junction and his car conked out, he got out and seen his oil pump and part of the engine casing lying in the road behind his car lol
Check this guys nutty machine torque, on an old engine that isn't supposed to take more than 170 bhp!
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=354947
There's some beauties on that site, pics of destructed engines that is, one guy was just pulling away from a junction and his car conked out, he got out and seen his oil pump and part of the engine casing lying in the road behind his car lol
Last edited:
When detonation happens in the post-ignition phase (piston descending), knock sensors will register it (they don't actually register the explosion of hot gas, but the 6400Hz vibration of the block - guess how strong is a detonation that makes a 120kg piece of cast steel to vibrate!) and pull timing back. This gives the engine a chance of survival for some time (measured in minutes), warning the driver via power loss and pinging-knocking sounds.
Detonation which occurs in the pre-ignition phase (gas ignites while the piston is ascending) is much worse (for the entire compression stroke, or a great portion of it, the engine is trying to compress a hot mass of expanding gas) and doesn't give the slightest warning. It either blows a hole in the piston and you find splattered molten metal throughout the combustion chamber, or it blows the rod away. The highest the specific power of the engine, the quickest and most destructive the detonation. GM engine testers acknowledged an engine making 0.5 bhp/cubic inch may resist for a short time before giving up, a 4 valves/cylinder engine making 1-1.5 bhp/cubic inch may blow up before there is time to react. (Stage 2 AUQs make 2.0-2.2 bhp/cubic inch. AMKs and BAMs much more.)
Possible solutions to avoid detonations:
1. Use the coldest sparkplugs available. Always copper or iridium, always thick central electrode. Thin central electrodes like in stock plugs work perfectly with stock engines. Double stock boost like a Stage 2 1.8T and the margin of error becomes very narrow.
2. Use the highest octane fuel available. Forget the RON98/RON95 book recommendation. 95 octane is barely adequate for a stock, 0.8bar of boost engine. 98 is a minimum. American 87/91 regular fuel is out of question.
3. Be careful to keep the EGR and cam chain tensioner working in top-notch condition. Recirculated exhaust gases actually have a slight cooling effect on combustion temperatures by diluting the air/fuel mixture slightly. They are needed just where the manufacturer intended them to be, at part load (WOT running is rich and excess fuel takes the job of cooling combustion temps).
4. Careful mapping to provide enough fueling at all loads and rpms. Forget "fuel economy" and "performance tuning", they do not belong in the same class. Too much of the fuel economy and performance goes to Hell. Which would be unpleasant enough even if it doesn't take half of the engine with it.
5. Be careful not to overheat the engine. In very hot climates like California, a Neuspeed fan switch is used to start the fans at 83°C instead of 90°C, together with a Neuspeed thermostat.
6. Use the best intercooler you can lay you hands on. The cooler the intake air, the better and smoother the burning.
7. Keep injectors clean. Self-explanatory.
8. Be very careful with oil quality and regular changes, since any wear on the rings or valve guides translated into oil burning - oil in combustion chamber is a great breeding ground for creating detonation. Even worse if it leaves carbon deposits on the cylinder head and piston.
~Nautilus
Detonation which occurs in the pre-ignition phase (gas ignites while the piston is ascending) is much worse (for the entire compression stroke, or a great portion of it, the engine is trying to compress a hot mass of expanding gas) and doesn't give the slightest warning. It either blows a hole in the piston and you find splattered molten metal throughout the combustion chamber, or it blows the rod away. The highest the specific power of the engine, the quickest and most destructive the detonation. GM engine testers acknowledged an engine making 0.5 bhp/cubic inch may resist for a short time before giving up, a 4 valves/cylinder engine making 1-1.5 bhp/cubic inch may blow up before there is time to react. (Stage 2 AUQs make 2.0-2.2 bhp/cubic inch. AMKs and BAMs much more.)
Possible solutions to avoid detonations:
1. Use the coldest sparkplugs available. Always copper or iridium, always thick central electrode. Thin central electrodes like in stock plugs work perfectly with stock engines. Double stock boost like a Stage 2 1.8T and the margin of error becomes very narrow.
2. Use the highest octane fuel available. Forget the RON98/RON95 book recommendation. 95 octane is barely adequate for a stock, 0.8bar of boost engine. 98 is a minimum. American 87/91 regular fuel is out of question.
3. Be careful to keep the EGR and cam chain tensioner working in top-notch condition. Recirculated exhaust gases actually have a slight cooling effect on combustion temperatures by diluting the air/fuel mixture slightly. They are needed just where the manufacturer intended them to be, at part load (WOT running is rich and excess fuel takes the job of cooling combustion temps).
4. Careful mapping to provide enough fueling at all loads and rpms. Forget "fuel economy" and "performance tuning", they do not belong in the same class. Too much of the fuel economy and performance goes to Hell. Which would be unpleasant enough even if it doesn't take half of the engine with it.
5. Be careful not to overheat the engine. In very hot climates like California, a Neuspeed fan switch is used to start the fans at 83°C instead of 90°C, together with a Neuspeed thermostat.
6. Use the best intercooler you can lay you hands on. The cooler the intake air, the better and smoother the burning.
7. Keep injectors clean. Self-explanatory.
8. Be very careful with oil quality and regular changes, since any wear on the rings or valve guides translated into oil burning - oil in combustion chamber is a great breeding ground for creating detonation. Even worse if it leaves carbon deposits on the cylinder head and piston.
~Nautilus
Theres Many out there. I'm using TSR rods in mine as they're a local company, I Believe they're wossner.
Theres an On going argument for Rifle drilling and not. Im not running rifle drilled, as are many others im sure, But many others are running rifle drilled.
Theres an On going argument for Rifle drilling and not. Im not running rifle drilled, as are many others im sure, But many others are running rifle drilled.
Rifle drilled are better... guaranteed lubrication to small end/pin
more expensive than non-rifle drilled.
Oe rods are rifle drilled
more expensive than non-rifle drilled.
Oe rods are rifle drilled
MexxT
Guest
I think it is the mapping what causes the bending.
How agressive does the turbo react ect.
I'm running a K03 Hybrid from JBS and makes 318lb-ft on stock auq rods. Running this setup for 1,5-2 years now. Its my daily and made 230.000km's now.
boosts 1,8bar peak btw.
Race-eend (also on this forum) ran an ibiza Cupra with IHI turbo, made 465!!! Nm (345lb-ft) on stock rods (by accident). Didnt bend at all.
How agressive does the turbo react ect.
I'm running a K03 Hybrid from JBS and makes 318lb-ft on stock auq rods. Running this setup for 1,5-2 years now. Its my daily and made 230.000km's now.
boosts 1,8bar peak btw.
Race-eend (also on this forum) ran an ibiza Cupra with IHI turbo, made 465!!! Nm (345lb-ft) on stock rods (by accident). Didnt bend at all.
Last edited by a moderator:
those torque figures are dyno lottery imho
luck is a big factor...
risk it or fit rods for peace of mind... I know what I would do
Similar threads
