are all front wishbones the same for MK4?

[vroomtshh]

-(that time it seems that the VAG indie gave it a bit much camber - thanks!).

How did they give you too much camber, on a car that doesn;t have adjustable camber?

This is why i generally dont post much about suspension/handling on this forum.
Far too many people who listen to all the tuners/ take everything on the forum as gospel, without using there head.

 

[vroomtshh]

http://www.saracendistribution.co.uk/images/product/motatl/zlwheelalign.pdf

See the above for what most garages carry out as a 4 wheel alignment check. Exactly as that place are offering. That piece of equipment allows a 2 wheel alignment check, taking into account the rears. Almost all tyre fitters will have this these days and it should cost no more than £40

http://www.alignmycar.co.uk/

The picture on the front page of that website shows a true 4 wheel alignment system. A brilliant tool, which can make a car 'handle' a lot better. A true 4 wheel alignment should cost in the region of £150, and on a MK4 ibiza, parts will require modification to carry out the alignment.

The above system can be used on a MK4, but without modification of the parts, then no alignment can be carried out.

So, for 99% of people out there, this will save you wasting money on a service thats just not needed on your car.

I personally, have had 4 wheel alignment done on my car. It also has the ability to adjust the front and rear camber, and rear toe.

But instead of listening to sense, why doesnt everyone rush out, buy a seat sport strut brace, rear ARB, rear spacers, and cheap coilovers, and then claim they have the best handling car in the world.

I sometimes wonder if I would be as well banging my head on the desk

 

[RUM4MO]

No it doesn't. It means getting a two wheel alignment done, taking into account the position of the rears.

How can you align something that doesn't move? They don't align the rear, or adjust the rear, or check the position of the rear (in fact, i seriously doubt any VAG garages have the equipment for it)

What they do is track the front wheels, taking the rear wheel position into account. The exact same as almost all tyre fitters etc in the last 10 years.

This is NOT a 4 wheel alignment

So with your great knowledge its just a two wheel alignment - one front wheel to the other - that will be right!

 

[RUM4MO]

How did they give you too much camber, on a car that doesn;t have adjustable camber?

This is why i generally dont post much about suspension/handling on this forum.
Far too many people who listen to all the tuners/ take everything on the forum as gospel, without using there head.

Again your great knowledge is showing, there is some clearance in the TCA swivel mounting bolts, the console mounting bolts and the top mounting bolts - all of that was built into the design so that the cars did not need to be built "spot-on".

You are correct to say that, in essence, these cars do not have adjustable camber in their standard form - but as I've said above, a slight agressive camber setting can be achieved, on both sides and with the alignment being "true" - and that setting can be enough to trash the inner edge of the front tyres under normal driving.

I know that there is fact and urban myth, but the last results for my wife's Polo pre re-alignment showed that the previous alignment had been "good" but just a bit agressive with the camber, since that work has been done the tyres are wearing "flat" - ie even.

 

[vroomtshh]

So with your great knowledge its just a two wheel alignment - one front wheel to the other - that will be right!

HAve you read any of what I posted, or did you just go straight in a huff, throw all your toys out the pram and then write that reply.

I have never once said, you should only align the two front wheels to each other

 

[RUM4MO]

On re-reading your replies, you are trying to claim that anyone saying or being told that they are needing or getting a four wheel alignment is wrong. The facts are, that the same alignment benches are needed and are being used to set these cars up as they would be if setting up a car with four independantly adjustable "wheels" - so there it is, and that generally gets called "four wheel alignment". If no movement was possible and no accidental damage had to inflicted on a car, and that car was getting some of its suspension parts replaced then it would be correct to assume that no alignment checking would need to to done post repair - and that used to be the case with many ordinary cars - I've changed struts etc many times and the car ran true enough afterwards - this is not where we are now with these little cars.

 

[RUM4MO]

HAve you read any of what I posted, or did you just go straight in a huff, throw all your toys out the pram and then write that reply.

I have never once said, you should only align the two front wheels to each other

Take a break, maybe from this forum for a while, come back when you can participate in an adult manner as it looks like you are the one needing to pick up your toys again - have a nice day now!

 

[vroomtshh]

Again your great knowledge is showing, there is some clearance in the TCA swivel mounting bolts, the console mounting bolts and the top mounting bolts - all of that was built into the design so that the cars did not need to be built "spot-on".

You are correct to say that, in essence, these cars do not have adjustable camber in their standard form - but as I've said above, a slight agressive camber setting can be achieved, on both sides and with the alignment being "true" - and that setting can be enough to trash the inner edge of the front tyres under normal driving.

I know that there is fact and urban myth, but the last results for my wife's Polo pre re-alignment showed that the previous alignment had been "good" but just a bit agressive with the camber, since that work has been done the tyres are wearing "flat" - ie even.

OK, if you want me to be pedantic, then yes, there will be a small amount of adjustment for camber due to bolt holes always being a bit larger. And, again being pedantic, its impossible for me to say how much adjustment would be available on your car compared to mine, or on any other on the site. But for all intents and purposes it doesn't have adjustable camber.

On my car (I wont bother mentioning other cars I've worked on since I dont think I've done another Ibiza) there wasnt enough adjustment as standard to remove half a degree of camber. I cant ever say for definite but I'm fairly confident that there wont be many standard cars where you could adjust for half a degree of camber.

Still being pedantic (seeing as its how you like it), if you're tyres are wearing perfectly flat, then you must have 0degrees camber and a toe setting allowing 0degrees when the cars under load.

That would be a wonderful setting for tyre wear, but your car would be skittish as hell, and understeer like a pig.

These cars have a reasonably heavy front camber to allow for sharper turn in and to reduce understeer as much as possible (dont even start me on Seat skimping on decent suspension mods and just increasing camber)

I personally have no more to say. As usual, everything read on an internet forum is gospel. And all tuners, always advise you on the best things to do on your car. None of them are just out there to make money.

Anyone with sense, in the situation of the original poster, will take his car and have the front tracking adjusted with the rears taken into account.

And all of those who have more money than sense, will continue to throw it away on everything they read on an internet forum.

 

[vroomtshh]

On re-reading your replies, you are trying to claim that anyone saying or being told that they are needing or getting a four wheel alignment is wrong. The facts are, that the same alignment benches are needed and are being used to set these cars up as they would be if setting up a car with four independantly adjustable "wheels" - so there it is, and that generally gets called "four wheel alignment". If no movement was possible and no accidental damage had to inflicted on a car, and that car was getting some of its suspension parts replaced then it would be correct to assume that no alignment checking would need to to done post repair - and that used to be the case with many ordinary cars - I've changed struts etc many times and the car ran true enough afterwards - this is not where we are now with these little cars.

Your obviously not reading my replies. My claim, was that the original poster didnt need a 4 wheel alignment. Along with most of the people on the site. And since there is 'virtually' no adjustment at the rear, then the rear wont ever 'need' aligned, or in fact be able to be aligned. All that can be done, is the rear checked, and damaged parts replaced

 

[Aimez]

Guys you are ruining this poor chaps thread, although he does have his answer at least!
To be honest vroom whatever your real name is I have very little technical knowledge but have been told by a performance garage that I would need 4 wheel alignment after they fitted wishbone bushes and coilovers. They did also say that I needed new front ARB collars and I would need to have 4 wheel alignment done again after that (they did not have the parts in) however I got these replaced at my local garage and they said 4 wheel alignment did not need to be done. I dunno if this is cos of the type of job it is or if I was being ripped off but I trust AmD as a forum sponsor and masses of people on here go to them so are you saying all these garage are defrauding customers all over the country everyday?!!

 

[vroomtshh]

Take a break, maybe from this forum for a while, come back when you can participate in an adult manner as it looks like you are the one needing to pick up your toys again - have a nice day now!

Tell you what, seeing as your not a million miles away, why dont you bring your car in, and I'll personally show you the difference between what is needed, and what is generally provided when VAG garages give you a 4 wheel alignment.

I'll then show you the work thats been carried out on mine, to give what I feel are the best settings for me. And then I'll give you a drive in it, if your still not convinced

 

[vroomtshh]

Guys you are ruining this poor chaps thread, although he does have his answer at least!
To be honest vroom whatever your real name is I have very little technical knowledge but have been told by a performance garage that I would need 4 wheel alignment after they fitted wishbone bushes and coilovers. They did also say that I needed new front ARB collars and I would need to have 4 wheel alignment done again after that (they did not have the parts in) however I got these replaced at my local garage and they said 4 wheel alignment did not need to be done. I dunno if this is cos of the type of job it is or if I was being ripped off but I trust AmD as a forum sponsor and masses of people on here go to them so are you saying all these garage are defrauding customers all over the country everyday?!!

Thats exactly the kind of point I'm trying to make. One garage has claimed you need a 4 wheel alignment after having new front roll bars fitted. Another has done the job and told you you dont need a 4 wheel alignment done. After the roll bar collars were fitted, does your car pull to the side, have any noticeable unusual tyre wear? I would seriously doubt it.

IMO after fitting new roll bar collars, no alignment would need to be carried out, and I would advise anyone of this.

After you had your original parts fitted, and a four wheel alignment done. Did they give you the before and after results, ask you what settings you would like, provide you with a few settings to choose from etc?

I'm not saying garages are defrauding customers at all. They can check that your car has the same alignment it left the factory with (other than toe), and then advise you if it doesnt. Thats a great thing, but generally unneccessary. But like you say, you trusted the original garage, along with other forum members opinions. Along with tons of other people out there, who then paid for something they did not need, and in all essence, did not get.

 

[Aimez]

Only done about 3 weeks ago and /I do not do many miles and the car feel completely different anyway after having all that work done so don't know about tyre wear. I fell that after the original work being done the wheel alignment was needed but not so sure after ARB links tbh but my local garage will nto have a fancy laser machine there would only cost £30sih unlike AmDs machine. No they didn't ask me what I wanted they said it is standard to have wheel alignment done after fitted what they did. tbh I am just a woman I wouldn't have know what to say if they asked! Car feel amazing since the work done am very pleased.

 

[thealienfromura]

I think you will all find this post useful

briskoda.net/forums/topic/112607-wheel-alignment-the-big-con/

Yes 4 wheel alignment cannot be done properly on ibiza/polo/fabia as the rear axel is fixed. this can be adjusted using camber shims to correct the toe and camber.

when performing tracking on the front wheels youre aligining the front wheels in relation to the rear wheels. if the rear wheels are out of alignment then the front wheels will be out of alignment

only the toe can be adjusted on the front of these cars but the camber can also be evened out by adjusting the subframe

if im not making any sense let me know =D

 

[RUM4MO]

I think that this slightly "off topic" discussion should go quiet for a while, I also think that most of "us" will have seen that thread on Briskoda as we do generally tend to "look around" - I have been on Briskoda longer than I've been on this forum - and I'm a VW owner! It really all down to the wording as you will probably agree that "four wheel alignment" is not the "top of the tree" alignment activity - its just one step ahead of "front camber + toe-ing" - which itself is not really enough for these cars. I'd say that both myself and vroomtshh have not exactly made ourselves clear to each other! My main concern here is, as a serious DIYer, I took one look at the 9N Polo and one read of the Fabia Haynes book (only one out at that time) and thought - "oh, even if I do drop the crossmember and replace the ARB, I'd then need to get the alignment checked/adjusted - and VW would probably hit me for about 90% of the job cost - I mean = remove u/s ARB > replace supplied ARB > align suspension"- in the event, as it was winter and just days before Christmas I just "handed it in" - and coughed up. It did come back with the steering wheel off-set and did not feel as good as it had originally - but other things took priority and I just let it be as the tyres were going to be replaced within 9 months and I was going to get the sloppy TCA bushes replaced - and that would mean another alignment, but this time at a VAG indie place. After new tyres and new TCA bushes the car felt good again - only thing was about 10,000 miles later the front tyres got their inside edges trashed just in time for MOT! So I let VW sort it after I took it away and replaced the front tyres. Their before and after readings showed that the centring was good, camber was equal but a bit near the "outer" limit and caster was out of spec a bit. So it seems that they moved things about a bit - I know there is very little "adjustment" - anyway, the "after" readings showed that they had managed to get camber and caster "in a bit" and the car still feels good and has "even" (that means acceptable) wear on the front tyres. Now it does not matter what any expert, like the guy that wrote that thread in Briskoda says - he is talking in theoretical terms, what most of us need to understand is that no readings are exactly repeatable - setting these alignment benches up relies on a human being regardless of how well he/her does. So that could be that a "dubious" aligner could take a set of reading, have a quick work out with some tools and repeat the readings - and see that they have "improved" - job done.

One general Seat alignment issue I had:- daughter bought secondhand Ibiza 6K (completely differant suspension set up to Ibiza 6L) - THEY DO HAVE CAMBER ADJUSTMENT - well big bolts/small bolts and one bolt on each side is called camber adjusting bolt I seem to remember. I took it to KwikFit to get the tracking done - went to pick it up, guy said "come and see this - slight negative camber one side vertical the other side - you need to take this to Seat to get the camber adjusted" - well he was right - why hadn't I taken the effort to look at that first (can't comment!), anyway booked it into Seat, phoned up 4 hours later "no problem sir its just the camber of the roads - head tech has been out for a test drive" - I said that they should get the head tech to stand in front of it and have a look please as I was paying the bill, answer came back "you are correct but there is no camber adjustment on these car" I replied that a couple of bolts are called camber bolts or soomething like that - they huff and puffed and said that they had got their "suspension man" on to another jib so I have to wait a bit longer! I phoned back a couple of hours later "one of the sensor harnesses is not working on our jig - what do you want us to do?" I replied that they should look at the job sheet and "make it happen" as the car was booked in for 08:00 and it was now after 14:00!! They had to take it to another branch and use their kit, at about 18:00 I strolled into the service reception desk, "your car has just been sorted" I asked what was wrong with it - "needed the camber adjusted" - how did you manage that - "slacked off the camber bolts and moved the strut out a bit". So, even the dealers get it wrong - that was a serious waste of a day's holiday for me - but the car ended up being sorted - but only because I forced them into sorting it - even although it was me that was paying for this. This car had obviously had the usual "kerb clout" prior to being sold to my daughter.

 

[qwert]

Cheers Aimez!

 

[Aimez]

I only said you may need to get it done they they had there disagreement not my fault! I did say guys you are ruining his thread bit the be fair you did get your answer before that!

 

[qwert]

No I wasnt having a go, was thanking you for standing up for the thread ha

 

[Aimez]

So, er dare I ask have the garage told you it need 4 wheel alignment or 2 wheel alignment or any alignment!?

 

[RUM4MO]

Cheers Aimez!

Okay, sigh!

I seem to remember that its the 6-speed boxes that need a different N/S TCA, also as said, the Cupras will also get the solid bush in the console. Now if I were you, I would play safe and get the correct parts by visiting your local Seat garage, then take these bits to a good VAG indie along with a couple of Cupra solid console bushes - and get both bushes replaced at the same time. Not being an Ibiza FR owner, I don't know if all or any of these cars were fitted with 6-speed gearboxes - but you will know what you've got.

Now as for alignment (STOP IT!) -----

Also, VAG tend to suggest that some coated bolts are replaced as the coating will get damaged when the bolts are removed, the coating is to limit any problems with bolts of one material being fixed into threads of another material - ie steel alloy and aluminium alloy - but in my experience, VAG garges only replace these bolts if they feel like it (or if there are any in stock).