Bugger, it's clonking again

[Chri5B]

Not sure if it's related to this but thought I'd mention it.

Anyway, recently my Ibiza has developed another clonk in the past week. I say another as it was clonking in the past when coming off / on the pedals and that was put down to knackered bushes. I got them replaced by Powerflex ones (both sets of bushes in the front wishbone) and it cured it.

However, the new clonk is intermitent when coming on/off the pedals - most common seems to be when coming off the accelerator. If moving and come off the accelerator (say to keep the gap to the car in front), the steering wheel will pull to one side by a roughly 2 centimetres. It doesn't always seem to go left or right. The tracking also seems to have gone off centre of late but the car hasn't been curbed or bashed (bar the usual speed ramps you find).

I've checked and adjusted tyre pressures but that didn't help the pulling (not that it would have helped the clonk anyway). Car is just shy of 80,000 miles so I suspect something has worn out but clues as to what would help.

Any thoughts?

TIA,

Chris

 

[Chri5B]

My car is with ABP Motorsport for a service and finding the clunk today - they've just rang.

Now, apparently the noise is because the driver's side front wishbone bush has failed and there's a vast amount of play in it. This has lead to one of the PowerFlex bushes I had put in to cure the last clonk being spat out, so that's AWOL. The play has meant the front tyres (especially the driver's side) are very badly worn on the inside edges.

ABP say the fix / replacement I need is a dealer only job

A quick search of this forum turns up lots of posts about wishbone problems. On this thread Ant FR mentions there being a technical bullentin about a set of bushes. Would this be the set which have failed for me?

Does anyone have a picture or can explain which bushes are which? AFAIK, when I had the PowerFlex bushes fitted, I had:

Front Wishbone Front Bush
2 per car (each) PFF85-601
Front Wishbone Rear Bush
2 per car (each) PFF85-602

fitted. So there's more bushes than that?

 

[Chri5B]

Just found this post:

I rekon Cupra bushes are better than the powerflex ones..

I had powerflex's fitted about a year ago now, the wishbone rear bushes (the ones that will make the big difference) are just inserts... and have a tendancy to fall out if your bushes aint in mint condition.

That sounds like what has happened to me. So which bushes are crap then?

 

[Neo_VR]

You have to bear in mind that the wishbone REAR powerflex bushes are just inserts... so if your bushes are on their way out anyway,the inserts will only slow the wear down. but they will eventually get worse..

My car is booked into awesome next week for the cupra bushes to be fitted.
They say its dealer only as there is a special tool to extract the bushes from the subframe-console...

gimme a few mins ill find some pics

 

[Neo_VR]

Right, its a bit difficult to see, but this first one is a "normal" bush. you can just see the bolt in the centre of the ring, which is how the wishbone is secured, and you can also just see the empty space either side of it (top and bottom on pic) so theres quite a bit of movement allowed with this bush...

Now this is with a Powerflex bush/insert/udder, whatever you call it. its basically that disc, with four prongs that fit in the gaps in the OE bush.. and restrict the movement.. (but dont help if the bush is already starting to wear)

hope this helps

 

[Neo_VR]

And this is what the Powerflex bush/insert/udder thingy looks like

 

[Chri5B]

Thanks Colin

Can I start from the top?

We have a front wishbone
That has two pairs of bushes in it, front and back
The rear bushes on the wishbone have holes in.
The PowerFlex rear bushes are the "udder" ones (which are much talked over on Briskoda)
These simply fit into the OE bushes via the udders
If the OE bushes are fecked, the PF udders will just fall out

Am I close?

Now, the previous clonk I had was fixed by the PowerFlex bushes, so I presume the front bushes were shot. I had the rears "done" at the time, but it's only today I realise the PF udders don't replace the OE bushes but plug into them.

If you go to my 1st post on this thread, there's a link to a previous thread of mine which has a picture of something that most likely fell off my car. The last poster on that (maxcars1) suggested it was a rear wishbone bush, so I wonder if that's the root cause...

Could I ask how much the cupra bushes are costing via Awesome? I suspect my Visa card will cry when I ask my local dealer...

 

[Neo_VR]

Thanks Colin

Can I start from the top?

We have a front wishbone
That has two pairs of bushes in it, front and back
The rear bushes on the wishbone have holes in.
The PowerFlex rear bushes are the "udder" ones (which are much talked over on Briskoda)
These simply fit into the OE bushes via the udders
If the OE bushes are fecked, the PF udders will just fall out

Spot on..

Now, the previous clonk I had was fixed by the PowerFlex bushes, so I presume the front bushes were shot. I had the rears "done" at the time, but it's only today I realise the PF udders don't replace the OE bushes but plug into them.

Not quite..
The front bushes are very unlikely to wear much or ever need replacement.. think of them as the pivot-point for the wishbones movement, any movement at this point will be tiny. all the movement is handled by the rear bush. i guess they just get fcuked with having a big heavy engine and stiff suspension. (and probably why the cupra rear ones are solid)

If you go to my 1st post on this thread, there's a link to a previous thread of mine which has a picture of something that most likely fell off my car. The last poster on that (maxcars1) suggested it was a rear wishbone bush, so I wonder if that's the root cause...

Could I ask how much the cupra bushes are costing via Awesome? I suspect my Visa card will cry when I ask my local dealer...

Its difficult to see from that pic, but it does look like the centre of a rear bush, probably got ripped out when the dealer tried to replace them.

It is possible to see (and reach) these bushes with the car on the ground, just look behind the front wheels and you will see them.. you will also be able to "rock" the front wheels forward and back when these bushes are worn.. mine move about an inch either direction, clonk like hell, and are actually that bad that the car can actually change direction depending if im accellerating or not.. theres several degrees of noticeable steering difference when cornering on or off the power.

Not sure how much the final bill from awesome will be for just the rear bushes but heres an idea

Edited to add.. the cupra bushes are about £16 quid from a seat dealer... the partnumber is dotted round on here somewhere

 

[Chri5B]

Thank you again.

Something hasn't been right as when you come on/off the power, the steering wheel moves about an inch.

What I'm now baffled about is what I had fixed with the PowerFlex bushes a couple of months back

I wonder if the udders managed to stiffen up the rear bushes enough to remove the clonk at the time and this is the same problem, just the rear bushes are properly shagged. Now I think about it, at the 70k service I asked the dealer to look at the clonk. They reported the bushes were knackered but that you had to buy a whole arm assembly to fix it. I just thought that was Seat being lazy / expensive and hence went down the (cheaper) PF route which it now seems was just a temporary fix

I've seen some pictures of the Cupra bushes either on here or BriSkoda. Do they include some metal arms too? I'm sure one of the threads mentioned them fitting to a console or something and you need a 4W alignment after fitting them.

£90 labour + £40ish for the parts doesn't sound too bad though.

 

[Neo_VR]

It depends

Dealers DO have a tool to press-out the rear bushes from the consoles in situ.. so no need for a wheel alignment after... could be a bit tricky without a special tool.
the picture you saw was the one that muddyboots posted on here, when he got the cupra suspenion from devonmikeyboy.
The front bushes in the wishbones can be pressed out and replaced but dealers would usually just replace the whole wishbone if it needed doing.

I see youve got a similar milage to me so unless you drive like a loon, my local dealers are going a bit OTT. took my car in today to have the clonk looked at (at their request.. id already told them i wanted the wishbone bushes doing) and they came back saying "to say its been driven hard would be a understatement" i just laughed at them.. they want to replace the wishbones, the anti-roll-bar and the bushes too.. and refused to just do the bushes (like i had asked)

We shall see.. fingers crossed that it fixes the problem, as its been getting bloody annoying having people turn round thinking ive crashed into something with the noise

 

[Chri5B]

Cheers Colin, I owe you a beer at some point I think.

I don't think my clonk is as loud as yours but somebody who had their first ride in my car a couple of weeks ago picked up on the noise without any prompting from me, so it is noticable. That said, I really want it fixing as I'll get new rubber put on the front and I don't want them worn on the inside prematurely.

So MB posted the picture of was the arms with the Cupra bushes? Is that what you are getting done by Awesome? I read a bit above:

My car is booked into awesome next week for the cupra bushes to be fitted.
They say its dealer only as there is a special tool to extract the bushes from the subframe-console...

as meaning Awesome don't have the press, so you are going for arms.

If I get my car back in time tonigh, I might pop into my local Seat dealer to see if they will replace the bushes on their own.

I wouldn't class myself as a loon but I don't tend to hang around if there's a good road in front of me

 

[Neo_VR]

I presume that Awesome GTI have the tool, or some sort of tool to do the job, as i dont think im the first they have done..
i guess we will find out next week

 

[Neo_VR]

Well just back from Awesome after having bushes replaced, 4WA and MOT..

the new cupra bushes have stopped 99% of the clonking (ive still got a small bit of driveline-shunt - cause not known yet.
Awesome DO remove the consoles to replace the bushes, a 4WA is optional after but i went for it because the previous alignment was done with fooked bushes..

Only thing i will say is it seems my car still has pretty bad torque steer, so i guess i still have a problem.. either dogbone mount (which will be replaced shortly) or a weak damper on the N/S/F as the nsf wheel definately "chirps" when it happens.

 

[cheshire cat]

Ithink the tool is just a threaded rod with washers and spacers, Chris PM me if you want a look at the "book" I'm not far away

 

[cheshire cat]

p.s. I think Flapper had a pic on here approx 3weeks ago

 

[Chri5B]

Well just back from Awesome after having bushes replaced, 4WA and MOT..

the new cupra bushes have stopped 99% of the clonking (ive still got a small bit of driveline-shunt - cause not known yet.
Awesome DO remove the consoles to replace the bushes, a 4WA is optional after but i went for it because the previous alignment was done with fooked bushes..

Only thing i will say is it seems my car still has pretty bad torque steer, so i guess i still have a problem.. either dogbone mount (which will be replaced shortly) or a weak damper on the N/S/F as the nsf wheel definately "chirps" when it happens.

:thumbsup: Thanks for letting me know Col.

Ithink the tool is just a threaded rod with washers and spacers, Chris PM me if you want a look at the "book" I'm not far away

I might well be in touch CC - thank you for your offer.