Handbrake issues

[dephead2004]

My issue is a graunching when applying the handbrake. Feels like the inner cable is rubbing on the outer cable.
Took it into the dealer who will look at it under warranty. I'll report back

 

[Branta]

Am I glad I found this thread ! It's so much easier to say "known problem" than explain just how I know I can't have left the handbrake off !

This evening I parked my car (Leon ST 1.4TSi) on my driveway as usual, reversed up to the garage door. The driveway has a slight slope down away from the garage. Well, enough slope that I can't possibly leave the handbrake off, as it will move immediately.

So I got out of the car, opened the hatch, let the dogs out, shut the garage door, and 10 to 15 minutes later heard an alarm. Turned out to be my car, only rolled about 6 yards but picked up enough momentum to break a concrete fence post and make quite a mess of my front bumper. I believe the handbrake was fully off when I found it, hence the momentum.

My first searches (not SEAT or VAG specific) suggested that applying the handbrake when the brakes are hot can lead it to loosen as it cools, but I had driven less than 1.5 gentle miles after walking the dogs. And anyway, I think I had found the handbrake lever down after it moved.

Now I had already been a bit cautious about the handbrake, from new (5 months ago) it was quite hard to get it past the first click, and too easy to leave it sitting not properly engaged on the ratchet. But these days it's a bit looser, two or three clicks is normal, so I suppose I was lulled into a false sense of security. But I guess it hadn't dropped properly into the ratchet and had jumped clean past the last one or two ratchet positions when it decided to let go.

Over the years I developed the habit of not leaving cars in gear, because with multiple drivers one doesn't know if the next driver will expect to find it in gear (oops !). But now we are forced to press the clutch to start the engine it makes perfect sense to leave it in gear. It's in gear now, just wish it had been earlier this evening.

I do like Rydale13's suggestion of putting a foot on the brake pedal as the handbrake is applied, this does seem to get the handbrake on a bit harder with no more arm effort. Especially valuable as SEAT left the handbrake where the driver in the LHD version would expect to find it (i.e. a long way from the driver in a RHD car). But this instruction is not in my handbook.

I'll add my own tip - never press the handbrake knob when applying the handbrake. Pressing the knob doubtless minimises wear on the ratchet, but from now on I really want to hear it click, for confidence that it has properly engaged with the ratchet. Though I guess that it might still be possible to leave it perched on the peak of a ratchet tooth with an extra bit of pull. It's really disconcerting to know it can bounce past subsequent ratchet teeth when it lets go.

I'm aware that others are reporting that the handbrake was still on after their cars had moved, I'm thinking that in that case the handbrake was left not quite engaged with the ratchet and has dropped back to the next notch. I was unlucky enough that there weren't many notches left to jump to, and it skipped past them.

Finally, I'm a bit confused by the mention of "hill hold", I wasn't aware I had it but maybe I have. How might that lead to a problem 10 to 15 minutes after leaving the vehicle ?

 

[kazand]

Especially valuable as SEAT left the handbrake where the driver in the LHD version would expect to find it (i.e. a long way from the driver in a RHD car).

Really? Have you got tyrannosaurus rex arms?

 

[NinjaPirateUK]

Finally, I'm a bit confused by the mention of "hill hold", I wasn't aware I had it but maybe I have. How might that lead to a problem 10 to 15 minutes after leaving the vehicle ?

The hill hold assist holds the brakes for a couple of seconds when you release the brake pedal on an incline. This allows you to transition your right foot from the brake to the accelerator and pull away without needing the handbrake. It works great in normal conditions.

However, I find that if I park facing uphill, pull on the handbrake and release the brake pedal the hill hold keeps holding the car. Once it lets go it 'drops' the car onto the handbrake. This is a symptom of the handbrake being an inboard drum brake, and not relying on the rear discs. The discs let go with the pedal and the drum catches the car.

I leave my car in 1st gear facing uphill, but the low compression of the engine wont hold the car either. So don't trust your gearbox to hold to hold the car either, assuming you have a manual.

I pull my handbrake on more than I feel is necessary since mine rolled off the driveway with the handbrake applied and in 1st gear. My handbrake is now touching the arm rest when applied. SEAT told me 7-9 "clicks" are needed to fully apply it.

The best my local dealer could offer was to do a brake "drag test" and it passed, so they weren't interested after that. I'll be curious to see if anyone gets any further with this, I got fed up of wasting my breath with SEAT over this issue. I was also querying the reason it rolls backwards in 1st too, so not strictly the same issue.

 

[Branta]

Really? Have you got tyrannosaurus rex arms?

I'm not a body builder if that's what you mean !

Seriously, the handbrake is on the left of the centre console, beyond the cup holders, SEAT couldn't be bothered to move it for the RHD version. However strong you are, pulling straight up is easier than pulling up at a distance.

 

[Branta]

SEAT told me 7-9 "clicks" are needed to fully apply it.

The way mine was adjusted (when delivered new), 7 to 9 "clicks" were out of the question, even standing astride it (sunroof open) and using both hands. o.k., so I didn't actually try this manoeuvre, but I'm sure you get my drift !

I still like the brake pedal idea, but why has it gone from the handbook ? And the fact it seems to work seems to say that there is no separate drum brake for the handbrake, it's all down to the discs.

 

[NinjaPirateUK]

And the fact it seems to work seems to say that there is no separate drum brake for the handbrake, it's all down to the discs.

I've had conversations with two separate dealerships regarding the handbrake, both have told me that the handbrake operates inboard drum brakes within the rear hubs.

That said, I've also got very little faith in SEAT dealership's ability to do anything beyond selling cars to people, let alone answer technical questions, so I will happily be proved wrong.

 

[Dr.Dash]

...I do like Rydale13's suggestion of putting a foot on the brake pedal as the handbrake is applied, this does seem to get the handbrake on a bit harder with no more arm effort... But this instruction is not in my handbook...

I'm yet to take delivery of my SEAT, but have owned various VAG vehicles over the last 20 years, the manual usually has the same advice.
The SEAT Manual is somewhat open to interpretation, but as you've discovered firmly applying the footbrake does appear to allow the handbrake to be applied more forcefully.
Here's what the Leon 2013 Manual states (p.147/8):

Always apply the handbrake before you leave the vehicle.
The first gear should also be selected.

Always note the following points when parking the vehicle:
– Use the brake pedal to stop the vehicle.
– Apply the handbrake.
– Select first gear.
– Switch the engine off and remove the key from the ignition. Turn
the steering wheel slightly to engage the steering lock

HTH

 

[Winder123]

I have this issue, took it to my garage and they said it was the alignment with the rear disks / pads, he jumped in, stamped on the brake, yanked the hand brake up and hey presto it went perfect, it seems to have gone into the creaking mode again so what I tend to do is when I apply the handbrake, press the brake again then this allows a little more movement on the handbrake and it stops it, the dealer should know what to do though to quick fix re-align it again, I wish I made note of the exact steps he did!

 

[DEAN0]

I've had conversations with two separate dealerships regarding the handbrake, both have told me that the handbrake operates inboard drum brakes within the rear hubs.

That said, I've also got very little faith in SEAT dealership's ability to do anything beyond selling cars to people, let alone answer technical questions, so I will happily be proved wrong.

On my 184TDi - The handbrake cables go directly to a lever on the rear callipers.
There is no separate drum brake system for the handbrake.

 

[Branta]

My issue is a graunching when applying the handbrake. Feels like the inner cable is rubbing on the outer cable.
Took it into the dealer who will look at it under warranty. I'll report back

dephead2004 didn't report back, but if your handbrake is like that, then PLEASE TAKE IT TO A DEALER AND GET THE HANDBRAKE CABLES CHANGED !

Have today written to SEAT suggesting a recall is called for. Since the accident I reported (in this thread) last September I have developed the habit of being very careful when I apply the handbrake, to the point of finally giving a push down on the lever to be sure the ratchet has engaged properly. Too often the handbrake could be pushed off the ratchet and flew all the way off ! Another favourite trick was the handbrake flying off when used in traffic on a hill (i.e. when my new rigorous "parking procedure" had not been performed), in this case I was always able to hit the brake with no problems (but pretty alarming nevertheless). Never saw anything like this on another car and have spent ages in my wife's Polo trying to get the handbrake pawl to sit insecurely on the "peak" of a ratchet tooth and I just can't do it !

I reported this to a dealer who serviced the car in April, and when I picked up the car he said "we gave the handbrake a bit of adjustment". Not really what I wanted to hear, and the action was still sticky/jerky. Finally went back to the dealer that had sold me the car back in April 2015, and tried the handbrake on the new equivalent model - it was silky smooth like mine had never been. Their service department agreed mine was unacceptable, and last week it went in to be looked at, the result was that new handbrake cables were fitted.

It's really lovely now. Apart from needing much less effort to apply the handbrake, I can feel with my thumb that the ratchet has engaged in a way that was simply not possible with the sticky cable. And (like my wife's Polo) I can't get it to engage in an unsafe way now, even if I try. Struggling to get my head around that, I'm guessing that the "sticking points" in the cable relate to a position it has been stopped in before, so the cable is behaving in a way that "indexes" you to a position with the pawl on the peak of a ratchet tooth instead of fully engaged.

But even so, why does it not just drop into the ratchet properly when it slips from this unsafe position ? Well as I've had to apply excess force to the handbrake lever (because of the sticky cable) the tension in the inner wire (at this end) is way over the design limits, so when it slips the handbrake lever accelerates down at a rate that defies the spring on the ratchet pawl to keep up with it ! Arguably the spring that pulls the pawl into the ratchet should be stronger.

Accident waiting to happen. Never tolerate a "graunchy" handbrake on a Leon !. My car rolled only 6 metres on the way to its small accident, but it's easy to envisage a very much nastier outcome.

 

[dephead2004]

Hi Guys, sorry to have overlooked this. It was replaced under warranty about a year ago on the second time of asking. It was fine for 6 months and now is graunching again exactly as before. Must get it seen to again. Faulty design IMHO

 

[Branta]

Interesting you had to ask twice, like me ! Even if you are out of warranty now, as it's a problem that previously occurred during warranty it's well worth having a go at them.

Right now I am regretting not suggesting that the dealer keep hold of the old handbrake cables for inspection by SEAT, but at the time I collected the car I didn't realise what a total eye-opener the new cables would be !

 

[dephead2004]

Not out of warranty yet so you have prompted me to get it sorted again. Thanks

 

[Fox57]

Think I might be having a similar issue. It takes too much force to apply the handbrake in my car, and it doesn't pull up smoothly but seems to stick through certain points like there is more resistance. Took out the handbrake cover and looked at the cables pulling through inside the car, they both seem to jump forwards in steps instead of pulling smoothly. So far no issues with the handbrake letting go but worried now that it could be the same issue you've all had??

 

[dephead2004]

No amount of lube will fix it either. Service had two attempts at that and I also lubed carefully in the cabin and under the vehicle. Waste of time. I'm sure it's the inner cable catching on the outer

 

[Branta]

worried now that it could be the same issue you've all had??

If you can still feel with your thumb that the ratchet has engaged, then you're o.k.

When it gets so sticky that you are denied the small movement in the lever that is needed to feel that the pawl has engaged in the ratchet teeth, that's when it's dangerous !

Trouble is, if it gets worse gradually (mine did, though it was never good) then this condition creeps up on you

 

[Branta]

When I had reported my accident to my insurer I was asked "who was at fault", but was effectively bullied into saying "I was", as no other vehicle was involved.

Now recently my insurer succeeded in winding me up on three other issues, so when I sent a complaint I also mentioned (almost as an afterthought) that if they had taken seriously my suggestion that the car itself was at fault for my accident, then they would have sent an engineer to look at my handbrake and the roads of the UK might have been safer because of it.

Not much of a result on the other three elements of my complaint (well, an apology for one piece of incompetence), but so glad I mentioned the "cause of the accident" as well, because after asking to see my correspondence with SEAT they have decided my claim can be recorded as a "no fault accident" which means I got a refund of my £150 excess and also a small refund on my subsequent renewal as the claim had lifted the renewal premium.

So I wonder if this means if they will be pursuing SEAT for the cost of the claim. At this stage I doubt it, I think they would have needed to get the car independently examined before SEAT replaced the handbrake cables, but they managed to miss that opportunity by their response to my first call.

My happiness at this result would be complete if I was convinced that SEAT are looking into why some of their handbrake cables go "sticky". I have to say that after only two months my handbrake is not as smooth as it was the day the new cables were fitted - it's not bad, but I don't like the direction it is heading. Made a note in my diary to ask for new handbrake cables just before the warranty expires !

 

[R22 JGB]

I have recently changed my car from a Skoda Octavia Scout 184 DSG to a Leon FR184 DSG.
The handbrake on the Scout was becoming heavy & graunched when I pulled it on. This is due to friction between the inner & outer cables, a thing that used to happen years ago. New cables should not become stiff after a short period ( the Scout was built in March 15) Perhaps VAG are having quality problems with their cables!
The scout was traded before it's first service, otherwise I'd have been asking for new cables. Also as my car was DSG, it was never able to run away, however it creaked regularly as I got out, prompting my better half to enquire if I'd put the handbrake on!

 

[dephead2004]

As above, my cable was replaced and then the new one started to geaunch. Note this just maybe coincidence but I got cross and yanked it on a few times with the car in motion.

A day or so later, I noticed the cable was no longer graunching.

Could it be that the sticking is due to the autoadjust mechanism in the brake drum itself and not the inner and outer cable that we had thought previously?