How does the DSG 'box work?

[Robdrums]

OK I know the principle of it, and don't worry, I don't want a detailed report of how it works, but my question is this: it always has the 'next' gear already engaged, supposedly. Does this mean always the next one UP (apart from when you're in sixth presumably), or does it analyse your driving, so if you're slowing down the next clutch has engaged the next gear down?

In a diesel the next gear up is ususally going to be what you want for acceleration, but how does it cope in the petrol versions if you want to shift DOWN to accelerate quickly?

How does it cope if you shifted quickly from fourth to second for example?

Cheers

Rob

 

[Tam]

Always wondered that too .

I guess that it tries to guess what you want, but if you do the opposite, expect a delay while it pulls its finger out of its ass and gets the one you really want.

Still the biggest downside of a auto imho,

 

[hundleton1]

have a read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-Shift_Gearbox

and http://cars.about.com/od/thingsyouneedtoknow/a/ag_howDSGworks.htm

it seems like the computer guesses your next move.

expect a delay while it pulls its finger out of its ass and gets the one you really want spot on

 

[rpmleon]

OK I know the principle of it, and don't worry, I don't want a detailed report of how it works, but my question is this: it always has the 'next' gear already engaged, supposedly. Does this mean always the next one UP (apart from when you're in sixth presumably), or does it analyse your driving, so if you're slowing down the next clutch has engaged the next gear down?

In a diesel the next gear up is ususally going to be what you want for acceleration, but how does it cope in the petrol versions if you want to shift DOWN to accelerate quickly?

How does it cope if you shifted quickly from fourth to second for example?

Cheers

Rob

To answer your question............... Dunno

What I do remember is that the DSG Box fitted to the Leon was the first one which Jeremy Clarckson raved about. I faintly remember the Top Gear episode where he said, "I KNOW IT IS ANTICPATING MOVING UP TO THE NEXT GEAR SO I TRIED TO FOOL IT BY CHANGING DOWN" he then changed down with no noticible difference in reaction time. His next comment was "HOW DO'ES IT KNOW???"

RPM

 

[Robdrums]

Oh yeah I remember that episode of Top Gear actually, wasn't it on the TT?

I suppose you're not so concerned about quick shifts when going down, but if you intend to use it in manual (as I might occasionally, though I won't have paddle shifts) then if it's pondering at roundabouts why you're engaging second not fourth as it had assumed then you might hit problems. But if it's well designed and mated to the engine it should detect you're slowing down and start the downshifting cycle.

Can't say I noticed anything untoward with it in the test drive.

Rob

 

[rpmleon]

Oh yeah I remember that episode of Top Gear actually, wasn't it on the TT?

I suppose you're not so concerned about quick shifts when going down, but if you intend to use it in manual (as I might occasionally, though I won't have paddle shifts) then if it's pondering at roundabouts why you're engaging second not fourth as it had assumed then you might hit problems. But if it's well designed and mated to the engine it should detect you're slowing down and start the downshifting cycle.

Can't say I noticed anything untoward with it in the test drive.

Rob

Yep, think you are right. It was the TT. Same box though.

For Me,

Round town, roundabouts etc I tend to let "auto" do it for me.

Quick overtake click down one into "Sports Mode"

Bit of fun on the backroads. Manual shift or padle.

I have said it before and I am sure I will say it again. This is the first automatic car I have owned and, to date, the best car I have owned (and getting better!!!!!)

RPM

 

[Robdrums]

Yeah, it'll be my first auto too, and I can't wait. How many times have I said I wish I had an auto for traffic and for pootling about but a manual the rest of the time? This really does seem to satisfy me in both respects.

One thing though, the Sport mode you mentioned, are you talking the TDi here? I had a sneaking suspicion that S mode just made more noise (and therefore used more fuel), as holding on to the revs past 4000rpm as it seemed to, in a diesel I would have thought was too high. It was fun though, but I question its use.

Besides, in Drive mode it seemed capable of telling when I wanted to hold the revs a bit longer based on how much I booted the gas pedal, and arguably seemed to change up at a more advatageous time within the torque band. Would be interesting to know if Sport is actually any quicker, what do you think having driven it properly?

Rob

 

[rpmleon]

Yeah, it'll be my first auto too, and I can't wait. How many times have I said I wish I had an auto for traffic and for pootling about but a manual the rest of the time? This really does seem to satisfy me in both respects.

One thing though, the Sport mode you mentioned, are you talking the TDi here? I had a sneaking suspicion that S mode just made more noise (and therefore used more fuel), as holding on to the revs past 4000rpm as it seemed to, in a diesel I would have thought was too high. It was fun though, but I question its use.

Besides, in Drive mode it seemed capable of telling when I wanted to hold the revs a bit longer based on how much I booted the gas pedal, and arguably seemed to change up at a more advatageous time within the torque band. Would be interesting to know if Sport is actually any quicker, what do you think having driven it properly?

Rob

Cannot honestly say for the TDi. All I find in the TFSI DSG is that when I drop into "S" mode and floor it, it drops one or 2 gears and then "Red Lines It" in each gear before changing up Is it actually quicker? Oh yes

I must admit, (with no offence to TAM or Hundleton1) once you get used to it you will know exactly which mode you want and what the (split second) reaction times are in each.

I am assuming you have test driven your car of choice?

RPM

Sorry, (half asleep) your statement "in drive mode it seemed" would indicate you have test driven it. (OOps!)

 

[Tam]

I must admit, (with no offence to TAM) once you get used to it you will know exactly which mode you want and what the (split second) reaction times are in each.

I am assuming you have test driven your car of choice?

None taken at all, its just my thoughts, i've never driven one so can only guess what its like, its forums like this that allow other to tell it as it is.

Perhaps i should get myself down to a dealer who has one as a demo and find out for myself

 

[rpmleon]

None taken at all, its just my thoughts, i've never driven one so can only guess what its like, its forums like this that allow other to tell it as it is.

Perhaps i should get myself down to a dealer who has one as a demo and find out for myself

My friend. DO IT! Even if it is just out of curiosity. Do it. Curiosity got the better of me but I do not regret it

RPM

 

[amnesia]

The DSG box is awesome, as mentioned by everyone. It does know what gear you're going to change into, though. By the way that you're driving, which I assume you know now that people have told ya'. As far as dropping gears, I've found it pretty good, to be honest. It gives you one or two seconds delay and then shoots off. It's just hard trying to drive it slow while I run it in. But, you get the odd urges here and there, lol.

There's a quote somewhere with someone saying... "How does it feel to know you're changing gear faster than a Ferrari?" I thought that was awesome. But the car is just so much better with it. You get to relax, speed up and pretty much do whatever you want. Without the worry of manually changing gears. Best buy ever.

I have really started to adore Seat more than any other car, well the FR/Cupra anyway.

 

[jimbo_FRDSG]

Robdrums, Tam, Hundelton1

Roll up all your pre-conceived doubts about auto boxes, scrunch em up and throw them out the window.
Believe me the DSG is (as oft quoted in posts here) awesome. The other DSG guys on here are probably fed up hearing me say but I have driven nothing but auto's for the last 20 years and they include pretty good 2ltr Honda's but nothing prepares you for this one.
There is no lag, delay or pondering, it's instant response. I cannot vouch for the 140ps engines as that's what I originally wanted (Stylance) but test drove the 2ltr FR TFSI and was sold.
I do most of my driving around town and its just so easy to drive and you can skip away from roundabouts and lights before manual drivers have even
registered its ok to go.
I'm an old timer so no boy racer but I get a kick out of just oh so casually sitting at lights then letting the baby rip when there is some noisy Subaru sitting alongside. Next view is him way back in the rear view.
If you don't believe us have search on youtube and see some clips of the DSG in action.
Try and get one on the 24hr test drive.....that'll show you.

 

[jimbo_FRDSG]

Oh yeah and the quote about the Ferrari is probably correct.....I did read or hear a rumour that Porsche and Ferrari are considering them for their future models.

 

[Rampage]

Apparently Porsche designed the DSG gearbox around 20 years ago but never got round to making it......

 

[beachboy]

I second the views of jimbo FRDSG (and bar), rpmleon etc etc.
You MUST test drive a DSG equipped car to appreciate just how good it is. I have driven automatics for very many years and this box is totally unlike any other autobox I have ever used.
In normal auto mode you just think it is a "plain vanilla" auto box with a kickdown facility.
In direct shift/flappy paddle/F1 MANUAL mode it is no longer an autobox and this just transforms the Leon into a snarling beast with totally seamless, faster-than-Ferrari, changes, up and down. As you probably know the DSG box is programmed to give a blip on the throttle on downward changes. This is one reason for everybody describing the changes as seamless.
From a safety point of view it is excellent because both hands are on the wheel at all times, maximising the driver's concentration on road hazards.
Regarding how the DSG box can anticipate whether you are going to change up or down, it is all a matter of fuzzy logic apparently which has monitored your driving style.

Sorry to contradict you, Rampage, but the original inventor of this design was
Andolphe Kegresse in 1939. However, Porsche did use a similar PDK racing box based on AK's design.
"Our" DSG box is designed by BorgWarner and licensed to VAG.
If any of you on SCN think you are good at Meccano, have a look at:

http://www.selmec.org.uk/article_0004_computer_controlled_dsg_transmission.aspx

for a working model of the DSG box plus lots of photographs, diagrams, explanations.

 

[MatthewB]

It works most of the time for me. D is perfect for my commute, although I find the kickdown is a bit pants and doesn't always give you the right gear. For example on the m-way and I use the kickdown, it hesitates then drops it into gear. Now here's the odd part, it'll put it in 4th which should be fine but all it does is make noise but doesn't feel like it's pulling. I always find myself reaching for the paddle to upshift to get some momentum.

S is excellent for a B-road blast, but for anything else, it holds onto the revs too long.

Best thing (for me anyway) is to use D pottering around traffic but knock it into Manual for sliproads/overtaking. You can use the paddles when it's in D but the system is too keen to take control back.

 

[flakmunky]

The DSG is supposed to learn your driving style... It must have a helluva problem with me (Schumacher) and my wife (Miss Daisy's Chauffeur)...

Poor thing must be confused.

 

[Damoegan]

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay...276&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2

 

[Robdrums]

The DSG is supposed to learn your driving style... It must have a helluva problem with me (Schumacher) and my wife (Miss Daisy's Chauffeur)...

Poor thing must be confused.

Really? Is that true? I've never heard anything like that, but that is interesting. Anyone noticed any actual changes to how it was when it was new?

Could be interesting for new owners buying used cars that have been used differently!

For all you non paddle shifters out there that have Stylances with just the computer game style manual/auto shifter, do you actually ever use the manual? Is it just as sporty feeling and responsive as using the paddles, apart from that you have to use your arm to shift rather than just a finger? I tried it in my test drive but didn't really find it was worthwhile, the auto generally made better choices than me no matter how I wanted to drive!

Rob

 

[Robdrums]

Went in a mate's Merc C Class 1.8 petrol auto this weekend. Quite a nice car, but it really hit home just what a revelation the DSG is after studying the changes closely. What a waste of time the 'manual' mode was! Not only four speed, but about a 2 second delay before changes actually seemed to occur!

Also, I was amazed to discover you can't engage manual mode when in Drive and already moving. Or you could, but you'd engage first, so really you can only do it from stationary, not on the move.

This isn't the case with the DSG is it? YOu can flip between them as you want, so if you engage it when the auto has it in fourth, you'll be instantly in control, in fourth, and vice versa when you slip it back into auto?

Rob