New cam chain 22 miles later the engines stopped

[Phantom3110]

Hi all

Over the weekend i fitted a new cam chain on my 1.2 12v AZQ 03 plate ibiza...

Fitted new chain, tensioner and runners, i also fitted new bosch coils packs, the car run sweet as a nut, i've done 22 miles and while driving the battery light and seconds later the oil light came on and the car warning alarm started bleeping i immedietely pulled the car off the road, popped the bonnet and found the crank pulley had come loose (was threadlocked and tightened to the best i could as i dont have access to air ratchets)..
I tightened the pulley up with the intentions of going straight back home which was a mile and a half away.
Turned the ignition key and the car just turns over and wont fire up, ive got a spark the cams are in time with no.1 cylinder tdc. so it has not jumped at all.
I even disconnected the earth for 2 hours in case the car went into some sort of safe mode but still nothing.

Any thoughts as at the moment the car is a expensive drive way ornament..

 

[Dan1720v]

does it sound any different when turning over? im not sure where the crank sensor is on these? its possible thatg when the pulley came loose it casude the crank to wobble as such inturn destorying itself.

 

[Phantom3110]

Hiya mate

The crank sensor is on the opposite end of the engine more to the gearbox side..

Also was wondering do later versions of the 1.2 engine fit other than the AZQ.

 

[techie]

If the crank bolt has come loose the chain will slip. Timing will now be incorrect and a fair chance its clattered valves.

Do the timing tools fit back in the cams and the crank? Im doubting it, the bolt holds tension on the crank gear so you cant use the pulley as a reference.

They used to recall the 1.2 for a leaking crank seal and seen loads that were just air gunned up rather than torquing correctly with the propper counter hold tool and it makes a mess.

 

[Slimy]

If I remember rightly, the crank pulley is keyed in some way, so yes if you put it back on it would naturally go back into cylinder 1 TDC. But I'm in agreement with Techie, the damage is done. It has jumped, and you've just put it back on in the same place.

Time to get the head off and start the valve swap. I'm guessing that even the small 1.2 is an interference engine? I managed to get away with a cam belt break on my Astra as it didn't have valves and pistons trying to be in the same place.

 

[Blanco92]

Techie, I'm soon going to be changing the chain as preventative maintenance...

Could I be so cheeky as to ask you if you know the correct torque setting for the front pulley bolt? I've got a torque wrench.

Also do you recommend changing the chain itself if it hasn't already slipped? I've got the new tensioner and various guide rails. Sounds like I need to get myself a crank seal...

Phantom3110, sorry to hear about your troubles, I've been keeping an eye on your posts about your car, shame this has all happened.

 

[Phantom3110]

Cheers guys for the answers, i'll strip the car down and take a look..

As blanco posted i too am curious on the crank bolt torque setting and where to aquire the lower pulley locking tool.

Also blanco when you do the lower timing (seperate chain at the bottom)make sure you account for the tensioner taking up the slack on the chain...

We got the timing spot on but when i pushed the tension side rail forward to fit the tensioner the lower timing moved out because of the slack be sure to account for this, mine was discovered purely by accident.
If i remember corectly we off set the lower timing so when the tensioner took the slack the timing at the bottom was spot on where it should be.

 

[Slimy]

Cheers guys for the answers, i'll strip the car down and take a look..

As blanco posted i too am curious on the crank bolt torque setting and where to aquire the lower pulley locking tool.

Also blanco when you do the lower timing (seperate chain at the bottom)make sure you account for the tensioner taking up the slack on the chain...

We got the timing spot on but when i pushed the tension side rail forward to fit the tensioner the lower timing moved out because of the slack be sure to account for this, mine was discovered purely by accident.
If i remember corectly we off set the lower timing so when the tensioner took the slack the timing at the bottom was spot on where it should be.

The way I did it on my bike was that one side of the chain routing was direct, the other had the tensioner on. So I set the timing based on the direct side being tight, leaving all the slack on the tensioner side for it to be taken up.

So if you can keep the camshafts and crankshaft still, put the chain on so there is no slack on the direct side, it shouldn't change the timing when you take the slack up.

And yes, it is so much easier explaining it than doing it, I don't know many people who have three hands to hold things still, another two for the chain and another for getting the tensioner on!

If you tell me what year and engine code your car is I can check the torque setting on Elsawin once I get it up and running. As for the locking tool, won't putting it in gear give you enough resistance to torque it up? That's how I did it with my old Astra, it was a bit annoying because each time you had to take the drivetrain slack up before you could apply force, but it worked in the end.

 

[Phantom3110]

The engine code is a 1.2cc 12v AZQ the year is 2003

The engine is also used in Fabias, and VW Polos.

If i remember correctly the timing chain went to the cams and crank gear theres another smaller chain that runs on a seperate gear that sits on the crank outside/next to the timing chain that runs something on the bottom end of the engine can't remember what now but the smaller chain runs 2 gears these gears do have timing marks (there imprinted dots that line or meet up thats the ones that went out when i took the slack out of the chain, all we did was deliberetely moved them out of time so when the cam chain slack was removed the 2 dots lined up as in diagram of off a russian Seat guide on the web showed...sounds confusing if your simply changing your chain out with the car fully functional it may be worth taking lots of photos of where all the cogs and gears sit when TDC is achieved on cylinder one.
This could come in handy for anyone attempting or changing a chain out due to failure.

We tried the ingear method but the clutch just slipped i think that bolt needs some serious torque.

Well on the weekend the spanners are out again, and possibly a priest to perform a exorcism on my car.

Also Barco i forgot you will need allen key style sockets and some Star styled ones too the star ones were a couple of sizes needed, the biggest was a t55.

The sockets were more expensive than the bloody oil and plugs oh and the crank pulley bolt was 3/4 sockets you will probaly need that pulley tool as it was hard work to undo it, and lastly there was about 23 different sized bolts (including crank bolt) holding the cover on watch out there was one hiding inbetween the water pump.

 

[Slimy]

From Elsawin. Bolt 19 appears to go into the crankshaft pulley, into the oil pump drive pinion then into the crankshaft pinion.

Bolt 19 - 90 Nm +1/4 turn further (90º)
WARNING
For safety reasons the fastening bolt of the crankshaft pulley must not be loosened or tightened with a pneumatic tool, as vibrations from the tool could provoke the displacement of the crankshaft gear and release it from the pin. This would cause major damage on starting the engine.

I reckon it was the 90 degree angle tightening that you fell short, a 90 degree angle tighten is f**king tight!!!

The crankshaft counterhold appear to bolt into the place of the engine speed sensor, it's SEAT reference is T10121 but I don't know if that is of any use to you? Ebay has this when I search for it;

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180423188786

In the auction picture the device on the right of the case is the crankshaft tool.

 

[Phantom3110]

Cheers slimy for the torque setting info

I got the exact kit in the pic but putting in that pin is a nightmare it wouldn't go in, i went to VW dealership nearby but the mechanic said he'd get into trouble helping me as i could be a proper mechanic and sharing trade secrets would get him fired, he did give me some advice but it helped a little but not what i needed to know.

Tomorrow were taking the cover off to have a gander and do some tests, i'll update soon.

 

[Slimy]

This is the steps from Elsawin for the counterhold tools;

Separate engine speed sender -G28--arrow-.
– Tighten the fastening bolt for the crankshaft notched pulley to the maximum on the crankshaft.

– Turn the crankshaft with the securing bolt of the pulley in engine rotation direction until the grooves on both camshafts are horizontal.

– The counterhold -T10123- should fit easily into the camshaft.
– Fit both tools tightening the M6 hexagonal bolts by hand.

– Lock the crankshaft fitting the counterhold -T10121- in the aperture of the engine speed sensor -G28-.
NoteIf the counterhold -T10121- cannot fit, remove the counterhold -T10123- from the camshaft. Turn the crankshaft 360 ° in the direction of engiine rotation and repeat the operation.
If both counterholds cannot be fitted:
– Adjust distribution timing → Chapter.

The distribution timing chapter just talks about undoing the camshafts gears and rotating things until all three counterholds fit. So probably not much help for you?

 

[Phantom3110]

took the timing cover off today and the timing was out by quite a bit, retimed it but unfortunetely she wouldn't fire up, sounds like the valves took a spank as you turn the engine over it just makes a odd whizzing sound and the engine turned over quicker, we took a plug out to see if we got a pop from the compression being made and nothing..

Wheres the best place online to get valves from? also i'm hoping we aint holed a piston.

But on a brighter note we engineered a tool to hold down the crank pulley and it worked we achieved the required torque and more....wish we had the tool on the weekend.

 

[techie]

Glad you made a tool. Dont rely on the crank locking tool to hold it whilst torquing the pulley bolt, ive seen them break up before now and make a mess.

As you may have gathered by now the bottom chain is for the oil pump, the timing of this is not important.

If you have the two camshafts locked, the crankshaft locked in the back of the flywheel (the tool can be tight to fit, I have rubbed mine down with a bit of wet and dry so its a touch slimmer) and release the tensioner all should stay where it is.

 

[James_R]

i'd be inclined to carry out a compression check to check for valve to piston action, even if the timing appears to be ok.

 

[techie]

What can happen is when a valve touches it knocks the roller off the top of the valve so the cam spins over but the valve stays shut. Still have compression as it will draw air back through the exhaust if needs be but wont run, just sounds rather odd.

But if its spinning over quickly and high pitched sounds very much like no compression.

 

[James_R]

What can happen is when a valve touches it knocks the roller off the top of the valve so the cam spins over but the valve stays shut. Still have compression as it will draw air back through the exhaust if needs be but wont run, just sounds rather odd.

But if its spinning over quickly and high pitched sounds very much like no compression.

A guy who used to work for us carried out the crank seal recall and left the pully loose, the crank sprocket fell off the key way and the same scenario as described above was present. Once the head was removed it was apparent that most, if not all the valves were very bent. The same guy also put the head gasket on the wrong way and tried to start the car with the timing pins in.

I'd like to high-light the used to work for us part.

 

[Phantom3110]

Cheers for the replys and helpfull tips on this problematic engine, as soon as the head is off i'll take some photos of the damage. No doubt theres some interested people that would like to see the damage caused by the offending bolt coming loose..

Once again cheers guys for the advice and technical bits its been helpfull

Hopefully this info will help anyone doing work to there 1.2 AZQ engine..

Stay tuned for the pics of the cylinder head.

 

[Slimy]

I remember a tiny engineering shop near Long Eaton, I took my bike cylinder head for a couple of broken exhaust studs to be helicoiled. One of their wall decorations was a series of valves from looked to be similar 'mishaps'. Most had the stem bent, or the valve was cocked to one side. But I remember one almost bent double, I always wondered what sort of effort would be required to do that damage!

 

[James_R]

I always wondered what sort of effort would be required to do that damage!

Very little on certain engines, especially on pds.