Unstable ride

[richtheae]

I'm looking for some advice on my 2008 Seat Altea Freetrack.
I had a little issue on it a few months ago where above 65mph at a constant speed (not when accelerating or breaking) the car would be unstable, it would feel like a cross winds on the rear of the car at random times and random pushing left or right feelings.

I've had all 4 wheel tracking done, The Rear tyres changed, but now it's got so bad that it can be felt over 40mph and is nerve-racking over 55mph.

The gearbox was rebuilt about 7000 miles (about 10 months ago), costing about £3,000. With the clutch replacement, a EGR and DPF delete and an ECU remap. I had nothing wrong with the car after this, but I will tell the truth that I have a heavy right foot when from a stand sill, not really into speed, more into acceleration.

The wheel bearings sound and feel fine, the shocks feel fine, and I do not have a broken spring.

It has been into my local mechanic and all the rear bushes look good with a pry bar, He only has a single set of rollers and can not drive a 4x4 car on his rollers, so he can't put it on a rolling road. He also tells me putting it up on the lift would take the pressor off the rear wheels and would not give him a real world results. He is thinking it may be the drive shafts. The car is booked in with him in just over a week.

Any advice on this matter would be great as if he just keeps firing the parts cannon it will get fixed but at what price!

 

[Tell]

I did have an Altea normal 2wd. It's suppose to have a crosswind adjustment built into the steering to compensate for crosswind. May or may not have something to do with it.

I can't say I've researched the subject but thought my old one was pretty stable so the compensation was kicking in. Might be something to do with that.

VW on the technology... Might be something useful in there or food for thought.

vw crosswind adjustment - Google Search

 

[Ivan Ryban]

It is an older car, and a little wear and tear is present at every joint and connection of material. It might very well be the drive shafts, but it might be the sum of the loose points here and there. I can see you tried to identify everything that came into my mind when reading your post. There is one thing that came into mind with this sort of trouble, that you did not mention (and seems absurd, but I will mention it nevertheless, just to cover everything..) a loose wheel (happened to me this summer, but it was accompanied by the rattling sound that you would surely have mentioned), so I guess you might check the wheel screw bedding on your rear wheel, just in case.. But I believe you ruled that out first. I had the same problem just until two weeks ago, but I had a broken spring AND a very loose inner bush on the rear arm. But as I said, it might be a little hear and a little there (springs, mountings, bushes, wheel bearings) just to sum up to an unstable rear axle. I changed the springs (Lowered Eibach Pro-Kit), all the rear bushes (used PU Powerflexes) and all mountings of the spring (rear) and the shock absorber with the spring (front). The car now feels like a new car suspensionwise (even comfortwise). What I would suggest would be a thorough inspection of all the rear suspension parts, especially the spring (might be cracked and not entirely broken), the rubber spring mountings (might be damaged), even the rear arms for any sign of a fracture and last, but not least, the bushes, because rear inner bushes are somewhat overly stressed on this particular car according to my observation and need to be replaced more often than other bushes. If you are confident about all of these, then yes, the drive shafts seem like the next logical step to check, especially if (if I understand correctly) your car is stable under load or braking, but floating when keeping the pace constant AND your heavy loads at lower speeds, where the shafts are much more stressed. Do you feel vibrations or hear sounds from the rear, or is it just the floating feeling of the rear? And I cannot resist asking one off topic question.. how did you have the gearbox rebuilt (modified or just repaired)? What is the mileage of this car?

 

[Tell]

I've had the loose wheel in the past with sub standard fitters. Do them up finger tight but not using a wrench . Tunnels you here the rattle. Halfords service here.

 

[richtheae]

I did have an Altea normal 2wd. It's suppose to have a crosswind adjustment built into the steering to compensate for crosswind. May or may not have something to do with it.

I can't say I've researched the subject but thought my old one was pretty stable so the compensation was kicking in. Might be something to do with that.

VW on the technology... Might be something useful in there or food for thought.

vw crosswind adjustment - Google Search

So had a little read up on this, and it doesn't look like the 2008 Altea has this, but I did try to turn the ESP off and see if it makes a difference, and sadly it does not. But worth a look thanks.

 

[Tell]

So had a little read up on this, and it doesn't look like the 2008 Altea has this, but I did try to turn the ESP off and see if it makes a difference, and sadly it does not. But worth a look thanks.

It had it on the 2004 one I had. Probably not well documented. It was a selling point that bit was unaffected by crosswinds since the steering compensated. It is fly by wire but they all are these days, so probably was some compensation they built in.

Probably this one

Side-Wind Compensation - Car Terms | SEAT

Side-wind compensation gives the electromechanical power-assisted steering extra comfort and safety. Find out more about this term in our Glossary.

www.seat.com

But you turned ESP off... perhaps it is never on or that part isn't working.

 

[richtheae]

It is an older car, and a little wear and tear is present at every joint and connection of material. It might very well be the drive shafts, but it might be the sum of the loose points here and there. I can see you tried to identify everything that came into my mind when reading your post. There is one thing that came into mind with this sort of trouble, that you did not mention (and seems absurd, but I will mention it nevertheless, just to cover everything..) a loose wheel (happened to me this summer, but it was accompanied by the rattling sound that you would surely have mentioned), so I guess you might check the wheel screw bedding on your rear wheel, just in case.. But I believe you ruled that out first. I had the same problem just until two weeks ago, but I had a broken spring AND a very loose inner bush on the rear arm. But as I said, it might be a little hear and a little there (springs, mountings, bushes, wheel bearings) just to sum up to an unstable rear axle. I changed the springs (Lowered Eibach Pro-Kit), all the rear bushes (used PU Powerflexes) and all mountings of the spring (rear) and the shock absorber with the spring (front). The car now feels like a new car suspensionwise (even comfortwise). What I would suggest would be a thorough inspection of all the rear suspension parts, especially the spring (might be cracked and not entirely broken), the rubber spring mountings (might be damaged), even the rear arms for any sign of a fracture and last, but not least, the bushes, because rear inner bushes are somewhat overly stressed on this particular car according to my observation and need to be replaced more often than other bushes. If you are confident about all of these, then yes, the drive shafts seem like the next logical step to check, especially if (if I understand correctly) your car is stable under load or braking, but floating when keeping the pace constant AND your heavy loads at lower speeds, where the shafts are much more stressed. Do you feel vibrations or hear sounds from the rear, or is it just the floating feeling of the rear? And I cannot resist asking one off topic question.. how did you have the gearbox rebuilt (modified or just repaired)? What is the mileage of this car?

OK ... So ... I jacked the car up myself and rocked the rear wheels and I have a tiny bit of play in them from left to right 2-3mm tops, a very small amount. Has anyone else ever noticed this, or could you be right, it's a bit of all the bushes and joints as it is an older car?

The wheel did not move on the hub, but I have not checked the wheel nuts yet. As for noise I nothing, no knocks, donks, rubbing or vibrations from anywhere.

I may have a broken / hairline crack on a spring, I guess that's a job for tomorrow as I'm stuck in doors waiting for the parcel man, lol

As for the feeling it's totally random, the car will fine and then suddenly you feel a push left or right (makes the car rock) on the rear like a gust of wind on the car from the back.

As for the gearbox, that's another story, The car when in with a blocked DPF, and they ended up removing it with an EGR delete and remap, but told me they needed the gearbox off to do it, so when it was removed they changed the clutch as I was also told the DMF was gone, I only said to check the release bearing as it was noisy. The car when in on the Monday and came out the Friday, costing me £1,425.00.
Saturday and Sunday, the car sat outside mine, less than 2 miles from the garage that done the work.
I went to Clacton-on-Sea from Sheerness on the Monday and on the way back I had a barring noise that I said to myself, 'it's a wheel baring, I'll make it home OK', and on the way back the car decided to empty its gearbox oil out on the M25 and lock up on me. So £200 odd to get the car flat bedded home, and then had to find someone to fix it.
I found a local gearbox specialist, but they wanted £1200 for a rebuild if I walked in with just the box or £1400 for a rebuild with 2 years warranty or 20,000 miles, and they also take it out and put it back in for the extra £200.
Once the job was completed they said the gearbox was missing a mount that had been there at some stage as it was a clean patch, the front drive shafts were loose and that they think the barring on the end of the gearbox had been hit a few time with a blunt object, maybe someone trying to get it back into place or back on.
So I had the car less than a year, paid £1,800 for it with FSH, and Timing belt just changed. Just under 120,000 miles. Now I've just spent as good as another £3,000 on it. That's not including the full service I had done too.

 

[Ivan Ryban]

OK ... So ... I jacked the car up myself and rocked the rear wheels and I have a tiny bit of play in them from left to right 2-3mm tops, a very small amount. Has anyone else ever noticed this, or could you be right, it's a bit of all the bushes and joints as it is an older car?

The wheel did not move on the hub, but I have not checked the wheel nuts yet. As for noise I nothing, no knocks, donks, rubbing or vibrations from anywhere.

I may have a broken / hairline crack on a spring, I guess that's a job for tomorrow as I'm stuck in doors waiting for the parcel man, lol

As for the feeling it's totally random, the car will fine and then suddenly you feel a push left or right (makes the car rock) on the rear like a gust of wind on the car from the back.

As for the gearbox, that's another story, The car when in with a blocked DPF, and they ended up removing it with an EGR delete and remap, but told me they needed the gearbox off to do it, so when it was removed they changed the clutch as I was also told the DMF was gone, I only said to check the release bearing as it was noisy. The car when in on the Monday and came out the Friday, costing me £1,425.00.
Saturday and Sunday, the car sat outside mine, less than 2 miles from the garage that done the work.
I went to Clacton-on-Sea from Sheerness on the Monday and on the way back I had a barring noise that I said to myself, 'it's a wheel baring, I'll make it home OK', and on the way back the car decided to empty its gearbox oil out on the M25 and lock up on me. So £200 odd to get the car flat bedded home, and then had to find someone to fix it.
I found a local gearbox specialist, but they wanted £1200 for a rebuild if I walked in with just the box or £1400 for a rebuild with 2 years warranty or 20,000 miles, and they also take it out and put it back in for the extra £200.
Once the job was completed they said the gearbox was missing a mount that had been there at some stage as it was a clean patch, the front drive shafts were loose and that they think the barring on the end of the gearbox had been hit a few time with a blunt object, maybe someone trying to get it back into place or back on.
So I had the car less than a year, paid £1,800 for it with FSH, and Timing belt just changed. Just under 120,000 miles. Now I've just spent as good as another £3,000 on it. That's not including the full service I had done too.

Well I would think the wheel should not move sideways at all. If you are able to push it around 2-3mm, the weight of the car might be able to move it at least twice as much during your driving, especially under sideways pressure in the turns. And you would definitely feel that, perhaps it is even your main issue. That might be your starting point, to jerk the wheel in all directions and have someone look for the movements all the way to the drive shaft. I think the spring, even if missing should not have any effect on the sideways movement of the wheel. Since you have a heavy foot, and I believe not only on straights, I think you should look into it soon. Honestly, I cannot really imagine, what might be causing sideways wobbling of the wheel aside from the wheel bearing.. If the wheel bearings and housings are fine, then, possibly, you might continue with the drive shaft joints, but what really holds the wheel in place is the bearing and it needs to be 100% stiff, no movement. I was even considering a problem with the tyre, somehow weakened sidewall that you cannot see or try at the standstill, but only manifests under driving load.. but since you are saying you can move the wheel with your hands, that is where I would begin..

Seems like your mechanic would take every opportunity to improve your car and change everything that he has the slightest possibility of persuading you into changing.. I would only wonder why you did not return the car into the first garage to clean up the mess they most likely caused?? The decisions you made with the repairs were absolutely reasonable (with the clutch change and all), so if the first garage had not screwed up, the operation would have been absolutely successful.. I am sorry for the trouble, but now you have a decent car with a few parts you can (hopefully) rely on, so that you have a good ride for a very long time.. btw. what did the remap do? didi it just adjust the engine to not having the dpf, or did you also go for a power increase? what result did you achieve and how does the car drive now?

 

[richtheae]

So… update, I have checked the wheel nuts, all good. Checked the springs to the best of my ability without removing them, all good again.
I have no wheel baring noise and it don’t look like its moving, it looks like the whole hub has a bit of movement in it. I do need to kind of push the wheel very hard, and it moves more on the back of the wheel agent the front.
I did think about tyres but I’ve had the rears changed and that made no difference.

I have a garage/mechanic I like to use but he was not happy to help with a DPF removal so I had to use some one else.
The garage that done the work on the DPF told me £450 and one day of work. they call themselves a 4x4 specialist but had no idea that my seat with a 4WD badge on the rear needed the gearbox off because it was AWD (Please correct me if I’m wrong) Then took a week and could not put the drive shaft back on right. I’m not going to use them again. They told me they had a guy that does the remap and in the end I used a local company I know of! The garage was a joke. As for the clutch a heads up would have been nice as I asked for the release baring to be checked. I was not given a price and the 1 day labour ended up being 2 weeks in total before I could use the car again for 1 day before a gearbox rebuild. So I won’t be using them again.

As for the remap. Take a look on KingMaps.co.uk website, it’s a totally different car, its quick! It was never slow from the start but it is quick to the point that I say to myself “that will do“ and lift the peddle. From a standstill the traction control system flashes and limits the power up into third sometimes. To get the real power down it needs to be switched off for a proper launch from the lights. Worth every penny with the DPF and EGR, it’s not been rolling roaded but I’ve been told it’s about 220BHP and about 450Nm of torque.

 

[Ivan Ryban]

So… update, I have checked the wheel nuts, all good. Checked the springs to the best of my ability without removing them, all good again.
I have no wheel baring noise and it don’t look like its moving, it looks like the whole hub has a bit of movement in it. I do need to kind of push the wheel very hard, and it moves more on the back of the wheel agent the front.
I did think about tyres but I’ve had the rears changed and that made no difference.

I have a garage/mechanic I like to use but he was not happy to help with a DPF removal so I had to use some one else.
The garage that done the work on the DPF told me £450 and one day of work. they call themselves a 4x4 specialist but had no idea that my seat with a 4WD badge on the rear needed the gearbox off because it was AWD (Please correct me if I’m wrong) Then took a week and could not put the drive shaft back on right. I’m not going to use them again. They told me they had a guy that does the remap and in the end I used a local company I know of! The garage was a joke. As for the clutch a heads up would have been nice as I asked for the release baring to be checked. I was not given a price and the 1 day labour ended up being 2 weeks in total before I could use the car again for 1 day before a gearbox rebuild. So I won’t be using them again.

As for the remap. Take a look on KingMaps.co.uk website, it’s a totally different car, its quick! It was never slow from the start but it is quick to the point that I say to myself “that will do“ and lift the peddle. From a standstill the traction control system flashes and limits the power up into third sometimes. To get the real power down it needs to be switched off for a proper launch from the lights. Worth every penny with the DPF and EGR, it’s not been rolling roaded but I’ve been told it’s about 220BHP and about 450Nm of torque.

Hi there, have you been able to make any progress on this issue? It was easy when I was theoretizing on possible causes, but now it seems I might have run into a similar problem, the rear of the car dancing around at higher speeds on uneven roads, and at high speed corners (on the highway) even on smooth roads.. I changed the springs for tougher ones (all four Eibach pro kit) and even changed rear shocks for B6s yesterday (again, tougher ones), but the rear of the car seems not to have noticed and keeps dancing around unpleasantly.... The wheel bearings show no sign of immediate damage (no grinding or shaking). The wheel can be moved by hand when lifted just like you mentioned.. a few milimeters by force, but really smoothly, no rattling. I just have two ideas, firstly, something loose on the rear axle, possibly some silentblock I have not changed (on the rear axle bridge itself?).. Second option is more likely my fantasy, but I will share it anyway before I get som real data from you I was thinking the unsettled rear may just transferred and amplified movement from the front of the car.. so that the front shocks initiate the dance and the rear just amplifies it.. because the front shocks on my FT are still stock.. but I did not feel they needed to be changed just yet, but then, again, I might have judged wrong.. I will be grateful for your update on this issue, since you have one year's lead start on solving this Thanks a lot

 

[richtheae]

So latest update. Issue fixed ...
I wish it was that easy.

I took this to my normally very good and always very busy local trusted mechanic who drove the vehicle and said it was a very unsettling feeling!
He looked the car over and couldn't find any issue with the ball joins, suspension, ect ...
After looking the car over all 2 - 3 times all he could find was the flexible coupling on the propshaft was breaking up, he said let's start by changing that!
After 2 week wait for a slot, he changed it with no luck.
Because of the time frame and needing the car for work, I decided to change bits myself.
I started with some bits that were on the way out soon, with the local road being terrible where I live.

So I changed :
Front and read drive shafts (advice from the local trusted mechanic) - Nop ...
Front and rear shocks (advice from a good friend) - Nop still have the issue!
Front Ball Joins and track rod ends - Nop ...
New tyres all round, wheel balancing (advice from local tyre shop) - Nop
Wheel alignment (advice from local tyre shop) - Nop
See a patten here ...

So I spent a few hours looking at the car myself and thought to myself do I need to change the rear diff ???

While looking, I saw two small suspension arms on the back, and they look good to me and I also remember the mechanic saying they look OK, but they were cheap, so I replaced them too and ... BAM!
Back to normal!!!
I was like "WTF!!! About £30 a set from BuyCarParts and sorted"

I was not a quick job but easy with two of us, as I had to drop the anti roll bar on the back to get to the bolts.
My part numbers were : 273C0415 and 273C0414 from buycarparts.

To top things off after all of this, last week I had to fit a new starter motor as the brushes in the old Valeo unit had changed shape over time and got stuck in, replaced with a Bosh unit.
And ... Now I have a leaking DPF from the factory join down the side of the unit!

 

[Tell]

I had my big end go or whatever it's called on the Altea once. That grinding sound. Broken coil spring once, pot hole but it managed to get to Germany and back with it broken. Then the mystery electrical faults with the lights on whilst turned off. Not being able to start it once for 24 hours. Good comfortable ride though. The sports seats are better than the sports seats in the Ateca Xcellence. Marginally. Expect Cupra are far better seats. Haven't tried them.

Glad you got it sorted. Always say trusty car when I see one.

 

[Ivan Ryban]

So latest update. Issue fixed ...
I wish it was that easy.

Hello there, thank you so much for your advice. I started down your path some time ago, but managed to change just the springs and rear shocks (it was a good investment, though, as I fitted Eibach Pro Kit all round and Bilstein B6 shocks on the rear, and this combination performs really well, as well as I was able to test it with the unstable rear, of course..). Nevertheless, I am glad you fixed this issue for yourself and even more so for providing this valuable aid to me. The rear small arms are the first thing I will change now, and I will do it asap.. In fact, I will change both the lower and the upper rear arms (toe and camber), and I will change it for something sporty (Silver Project adjustable arms). I will post here how that goes for me. Thanks again.

 

[Ivan Ryban]

Hi Rich, I want to say a big thank you for your help! I managed to finish the job just two days ago, but the rear of the car is as solud as a rock! Well with the stiffer springs and shocks it is a pleasure to drive.

I changed both the lowet (easy, and the silent blocks were absolutely destroyed there, but I was only able to see this once the arm was out..) and the upper (pain..) rear arms for much tougher and more solid Silver Project adjustable arms, especially the lower one is really a solid piece of metal now, compared to the soft original part. I also changed the rear stab. drop links, as the stab. had to go out to replace the lower arm, and I felt the failed sulentblocks in the links, too..

Now I can feel the full glory of the rear suspension and I am looking forward to replacing the front shocks (bilstein b6) and both stabs (hr sport) to complete the transformation of my Freetrack to a full sports car

Thank you again for your advice, it absolutely solved the issue with unsettled rear of the car.. ans this could help also anyone outside the realm of Freetrack owners.

Cheers, Ivan