Non-Starting Cupra - Whats Wrong Now? (Inc Video)

[SEATgod]

Hello All,

In the current climate it is harder to come to a gentlemens agreement surrounding warranty as there is NO money in the market today, which means Dealers cannot risk a warranty rejection. Especially if they know they are working on a heavily modified vehicle!

A REVO custom map which increases horsepower by around 10-20% is pretty significant and is grounds to reject any warranty claim. You don't get 300hp + with just an intercooler and a few pretty pipes! ;-)

SEAT were not involved as they did not know about the incident until late on, by then it had been dealt with.

SEAT Dealers are privately owned and act in their own interest as long as they do not bring the brand into disrepute, the finance company is a seperate entity to SEAT UK. Unless the Dealer or the Customer ring SEAT UK, how can they get involved? - How can they know about it?

Whether the customer was "rushed " into a finance agreement or not....would you sign something without reading it? I know I cannot structurally alter my house without my mortgage companies permission - otherwise they can repossess it! I am sorry but ignorance is not an excuse!

I'm not fighting anyone's corner but people are quick to jump on the "my Dealer is rubbish" bandwagon..........sometimes it is right...sometimes it is wrong!

I don't think Dealer's start the relationship meaning to upset SEAT's customers!!

When you experience issues, do you complain constructively or vitto them FOREVER!!

If I were an Aftersales Manager, I would want to know why I upset my customer!

 

[UncleFester]

Hello All,

In the current climate it is harder to come to a gentlemens agreement surrounding warranty as there is NO money in the market today, which means Dealers cannot risk a warranty rejection. Especially if they know they are working on a heavily modified vehicle!

A REVO custom map which increases horsepower by around 10-20% is pretty significant and is grounds to reject any warranty claim. You don't get 300hp + with just an intercooler and a few pretty pipes! ;-)

SEAT were not involved as they did not know about the incident until late on, by then it had been dealt with.

SEAT Dealers are privately owned and act in their own interest as long as they do not bring the brand into disrepute, the finance company is a seperate entity to SEAT UK. Unless the Dealer or the Customer ring SEAT UK, how can they get involved? - How can they know about it?

Whether the customer was "rushed " into a finance agreement or not....would you sign something without reading it? I know I cannot structurally alter my house without my mortgage companies permission - otherwise they can repossess it! I am sorry but ignorance is not an excuse!

I'm not fighting anyone's corner but people are quick to jump on the "my Dealer is rubbish" bandwagon..........sometimes it is right...sometimes it is wrong!

I don't think Dealer's start the relationship meaning to upset SEAT's customers!!

When you experience issues, do you complain constructively or vitto them FOREVER!!

If I were an Aftersales Manager, I would want to know why I upset my customer!

If i was a privately owned dealer, i'd be taking a contract out with a remapper / specialist so that I could offer an 'all in one' value added service to my sporting customers.

That'd get around the problem in some cases however the fact still remains that the faults in question are not unknown and the two parts that failed are known to fail on standard cars - a remap simple accelerates the problem on at least one of them.

 

[SEATgod]

But does that mean the Dealer should look at the vehicle if the work is not underwritten by a customer when the vehicle is essentially void of warranty? Wether they knew what the likely cause of the fault was or not.

In principle, you pay the premium for franchised work because they are fully equipped, fully trained, manufacturer approved and have manufacturer experience! Should that be given away for free?

You can't get a plumber in your house to diagnose your faulty boiler without handing over cash! Why is it any different when you take your vehicle to any garage!

 

[phil3012]

When I said rushed into signing a finance agreement to read the small print of the finance agreement and order form takes quite a while and I certainly feel under pressure to sign without having half an hour or so to read both properly.

Regarding my complaints over SEAT dealers I do give them every second chance.

First SEAT dealer I booked a test drive in a Cupra and an FR back to back as they had both on demo. Got a call the day before to say I couldn't test drive the Cupra as it was in the bodyshop getting a spoiler and skirts fitted (which happened to be over a bank holiday weekend). They lost the sale as I could only drive the FR and really wanted a Cupra.

The dealer I bought from was trouble after signing on the dotted line. They lost my order and only found it after the intervention of SEAT then it was going to be 6 weeks late, but then a car of the exact spec turned up.

I spoke to the Service Manager and Aftersales Manager on numerous occassions, to try and resolve the issues. It was a major concern most of the staff seemed to change every couple of months. The aftersales managers standard comment about previous bad experience was "That was before my time". Just when the standards of service started to get better it would goto pot as they have new staff.

If it wasn't for the shocking service of these dealers I would still have my Cupra. Both are within 20 miles of my house but due to traffic one visit to the dealer (there and back twice) is 3 hours out of the working day. Each problem took 3 attempts to fix, one to diagonse the problem, one to try and fix it and one to rectify the mistakes made. Oh and they usually could fix anything while I waited hence the 2 trips in a day.

I was in the position to buy a better car after taking a hit on the Cupra's resale price, so SEAT have lost an owner (probably never to buy another) and the dealer and in fact the whole group to which the dealer belongs have lost a customer.

By the way out of interest is SEAT Finance part of SEAT or is it another financial insitution?

 

[phil3012]

But does that mean the Dealer should look at the vehicle if the work is not underwritten by a customer when the vehicle is essentially void of warranty? Wether they knew what the likely cause of the fault was or not.

In principle, you pay the premium for franchised work because they are fully equipped, fully trained, manufacturer approved and have manufacturer experience! Should that be given away for free?

You can't get a plumber in your house to diagnose your faulty boiler without handing over cash! Why is it any different when you take your vehicle to any garage!

Not trying to have a go at SEATgod personally, so appologies but my thoughts on those comments:

A francised dealer should have the expertise yes, but many don't as in my previous comments and I have had similar trouble with a Ford dealer in the past.

Yes I get can a plumber into my house for free as it is under warrenty as the guy who started this thread thought his car was.

If I took my car (whatever car it was) to a garage, I would expect them to make a reasonable endevour to diagnose a problem free of charge, or in the case of a small garage for a nominal charge.

I would expect them to take a look at it for free and go, that will be £nnn for a new whatever. It builds up goodwill with the customer.

 

[robdf2]

Thing is at the end of the day the seat dealers are like you and me have good days and bad days , plus its their business.
I have been patient with the faults on my car but its starting to wear thin.

I believe having a relationship with the garage you use is key.
If i dont get the service or support i think i should be getting i will walk and find another.

Most garages dont know how to deal with compliants because 90 % of people wouldnt worry if their car was noisy or sluggish they just get on and drive it.

How many mk2 cupras are there on the road? not that many.
what percentage of them will have the same mods as the op ? very little , thats why dealers panic , they dont know what to do or say just react negativley.
its just my opinion.

 

[P0LKR]

Has seatgod revealed his identity yet? Does he work for the said dealer and if so what position?

Why is it if a remap is grounds for a knocking back a claim do audi offically offer a remap and certain seat garages are revo dealers!!!!!

 

[sportbilly]

So a remap voids all warranty ...

 

[seremotors]

Has seatgod revealed his identity yet? Does he work for the said dealer and if so what position?

Why is it if a remap is grounds for a knocking back a claim do audi offically offer a remap and certain seat garages are revo dealers!!!!!

I think its irrelevant who seatgod works for. Everything he says is true and as dealers we are ALL bound by the terms SEAT lay down. Absolutely EVERY non-approved modification is technically a legal breach of warranty and this holds across every make of car. Everyone modifies Subarus but if it aint Prodrive it aint covered.
My own car is lowered, remapped, rewired and generally tinkered with and even tho I hold a senior dealership position, if it goes wrong Im f****d on warranty. Its a chance you take. Would you expect Currys to take back your TV or computer if you had the back off and pissed about with the components? I dont think so . . . . . . Same principle. If you play about, accept the risks. Blame SEAT for the terms and conditions, not the dealers, and remember it works both ways - funny how our help is always accepted without thanks but we get slated whether its our fault or not. Try claiming a warranty on an Alfa Romeo and find out what its like to REALLY have no support

 

[Poverty]

A REVO custom map which increases horsepower by around 10-20% is pretty significant and is grounds to reject any warranty claim. You don't get 300hp + with just an intercooler and a few pretty pipes! ;-)

Really? So you obviously choose to ignore the fact that in other european countries its perfectly acceptable to have a remap and is endorsed/approved by VW/VAG.

You can't get a plumber in your house to diagnose your faulty boiler without handing over cash! Why is it any different when you take your vehicle to any garage!

Not true. British Gas will come into people houses BEFORE they are on contract with them, and diagnose a fault for free. Once diagnosed they inform the customer whether its chargeable or not, and only charge for the amount of time it then takes to fix the problem they diagnosed!

Same goes for private gas engineers/plumbers, you wouldnt pay someone money for NOT being able to diagnose/fix the fault on your boiler would you?

 

[SEATgod]

Really? So you obviously choose to ignore the fact that in other european countries its perfectly acceptable to have a remap and is endorsed/approved by VW/VAG.

I have to argue that...very strongly!! SEAT SA do not cover any modifaction work not approved by them...same with the other 4 brands in the VWG! No external modifation companies provide approved tuning devices or products!

Not true. British Gas will come into people houses BEFORE they are on contract with them, and diagnose a fault for free. Once diagnosed they inform the customer whether its chargeable or not, and only charge for the amount of time it then takes to fix the problem they diagnosed!

Same goes for private gas engineers/plumbers, you wouldnt pay someone money for NOT being able to diagnose/fix the fault on your boiler would you?

What gas engineer do you use, I will happily use him if he will come into my home and diagnose the issue and not want paying!

But then again, if you have changed your vehicle away from the condition it left the production line(warranted), why should that warranty continue to be valid! regardless of if the fault is related or a "known issue!? The Dealer will happily work on any vehicle, but someone needs to pay for it! If you have tuned your vehicle SEAT SA (SEAT Spain, your warranty is with SEAT Spain, not SEAT UK) will not accept the claim. Its the risk you run......if its tuned the easy answer is the cost is down to you!

The Leon Cupra has running gear, brakes and ancillaries that are capable of handling the 240PS as standard, can you honestly say that it is fair to expect the warranty to cover all components once you have pushed 320PS through the entire vehicle? Apart from the running temperatures, boost increase and uprated injection period, you are talking about massive torque and thrust increases going through parts that potentially cannot handle it!

Do the Audi S5 (354PS) and the Leon Cupra (240PS) use the same driveshaft, brakes or gearbox? I think not!

ROBDF2, what issues do you have with your vehicle?

 

[Poverty]

What gas engineer do you use, I will happily use him if he will come into my home and diagnose the issue and not want paying!

But then again, if you have changed your vehicle away from the condition it left the production line(warranted), why should that warranty continue to be valid! regardless of if the fault is related or a "known issue!? The Dealer will happily work on any vehicle, but someone needs to pay for it! If you have tuned your vehicle SEAT SA (SEAT Spain, your warranty is with SEAT Spain, not SEAT UK) will not accept the claim. Its the risk you run......if its tuned the easy answer is the cost is down to you!

The Leon Cupra has running gear, brakes and ancillaries that are capable of handling the 240PS as standard, can you honestly say that it is fair to expect the warranty to cover all components once you have pushed 320PS through the entire vehicle? Apart from the running temperatures, boost increase and uprated injection period, you are talking about massive torque and thrust increases going through parts that potentially cannot handle it!

Do the Audi S5 (354PS) and the Leon Cupra (240PS) use the same driveshaft, brakes or gearbox? I think not!

ROBDF2, what issues do you have with your vehicle?

well firstly the S5 uses quattro and the cupra is fwd. secondly the cupra uses a fair share of parts from the audi s3 and tts, and the tts has 270hp but dynos up to 300hp as standard. Also yes the brakes can handle it, the cupra uses the same stoppers as some of its more powerful stable mates.

Also I do think its fair for the warranty to cover a 320hp car when the likes of MTM who VAG in germany approves, quotes 310hp from their remaps on the leon cupra engine.

 

[SEATgod]

well firstly the S5 uses quattro and the cupra is fwd. secondly the cupra uses a fair share of parts from the audi s3 and tts, and the tts has 270hp but dynos up to 300hp as standard.

Also yes the brakes can handle it, the cupra uses the same stoppers as some of its more powerful stable mates.

Also I do think its fair for the warranty to cover a 320hp car when the likes of MTM who VAG in germany approves, quotes 310hp from their remaps on the leon cupra engine.

Again, I'm afraid you are mistaken.......anyway...we can discuss it all night, we know what the policy on tuning and warranty for all manufacturers is....if it is not approved it is not warrantable!

Kind regards

 

[Poverty]

Again, I'm afraid you are mistaken.......anyway...we can discuss it all night, we know what the policy on tuning and warranty for all manufacturers is....if it is not approved it is not warrantable!

Kind regards

Either you are missing the point or are choosing to ignore the issue.

What I am is saying is that in other countries, such as Germany, a remap will NOT affect your warranty, and its actually approved by VAG. Hell in the netherlands, SEAT of netherlands sold a remapped cupra with a miltek exhaust as a limited edition model which had over 300hp!!!!!!!!!!!

So please dont tell me that I dont know what I am talking about as I could most likely tell you more about VAG R&D and marketing than you ever could

 

[SEATgod]

Either you are missing the point or are choosing to ignore the issue.

What I am is saying is that in other countries, such as Germany, a remap will NOT affect your warranty, and its actually approved by VAG. Hell in the netherlands, SEAT of netherlands sold a remapped cupra with a miltek exhaust as a limited edition model which had over 300hp!!!!!!!!!!!

So please dont tell me that I dont know what I am talking about as I could most likely tell you more about VAG R&D and marketing than you ever could

I suppose you are referring to the to the SEAT Leon Copa, the anniversary model to celebrate seven years in the SEAT copa series that follows the DTM touring cars.

So you are aware that the 285PS power is produced using a BOSCH MP control unit with a map created by SEAT Sport SA, a tamed version of that used by the the petrol touring cars. The Miltek exhaust is a sponsored deal brokered between SEAT and the exhaust firm itself and it actually rolls out of the SEAT Sport headquarters in Spain like this (not a remap). The vehicle is sent to SEAT Sport as a standard Leon Cupra, the necessary parts are removed and new ones installed. Which is why the vehicle is delivered with 18 miles on rather than the normal 6, as each one is driven from the exit of the production line up the road to the SEAT Sport HQ (got a picture if you want it) and then back again in batches of 12 for shipping. Thats is why the old LCR was always delivered with 18 miles too! The only importer to show interest in the vehicle was the Netherlands, every other importer declined as it stood against the R32 and the S3.........Netherlands to do not have SEAT set up in a group function like all other importers! (all 5 brands under 1 roof)

Please do not patronise me, I am here on this forum discussing a topic I know a lot about! I dont speculate, I just speak fact! VWG R & D hey...where you based? how do you do R & D for all 5 brands in the UK? the only R & D for SEAT is carried out in Martorell Barcelona and I have a funny feeling, Audi is Ingolstadt in Germany.......& Marketing.......so you know the SEAT Brands values off the top of your head, and the Audi ones....and the VW ones!!

No R & D is carried out for VWG in the Uk so you must be an independant, or work in house at MK!!

 

[Al]

Really? So you obviously choose to ignore the fact that in other european countries its perfectly acceptable to have a remap and is endorsed/approved by VW/VAG.

Although that is relevant to this conversation, in this instance, it would make no difference to the issue at hand as the remap installed is not SEAT approved in the UK, however I know where you are coming from.

I have said this before, and will say it again. I am really surprised SEAT do not embrace the tuning business opportunity they have staring them in the face like Subaru, Vauxhall and Ford etc have done.

For example, you could walk in to a Vauxhall dealer and buy an Astra VXR and have the dealer install a stage 3 upgrade which is fully warranted by Vauxhall. That takes power from 240bhp to close on 300bhp. Many people done this and not many of them regret doing so. More importantly, they would buy another model in the range. Getting a customer is easy, but keeping that customer is harder.

For SEAT, for sure there would probably be a premium price added to the parts over what a specialist might charge (as per the big brake upgrade available from dealers). However, things like a gearbox differential could be offered, up-rated engine/drive components may be an option to cope with extra power a tuning option would give in addition to the obligatory intake upgrade, bigger cooler, up-rated exhaust etc.

At the end of the day people will chance adding parts to their cars regardless of warranty anyway. Why not get a piece of that cake by selling warranted/approved tuning products at a slight premium price?

The good thing about this for the customer would be that they then have an option to modify within the realms of the SEAT warranty. The good thing for SEAT would be that they get extra money from customers, their dealers are kept busier installing them. The overall result would be a proper cult following like the VXR brand has done for Vauxhall. SEAT is not even close to being in the same league with the FR and Cupra branding as things stand.

Also, the people who may otherwise be concerned about tuning their car because of the warranty, may be seduced in to upgrading the performance of their car rather than trade their car in for something else that gives an OEM option to tune it. This itself, in the current financial climate, would be a nice/smart option to have available.

As things are, people will do what they want to with their car and chance their luck with warranty claims. Worst case scenario, should it be needed, some may go to the effort/expense of having their modified car returned back to OEM, have the ECU re-flashed with OEM code etc and any other tell tales removed too. At that point, it has cost the owner money to do this, or they run the risk of having a warranty claim rejected.

This works for nobody because;

1) SEAT may have to pay out on a car that was running out with warranty after the owner has had non OEM parts removed before a warranty claim.
2) If the parts are left on, SEAT tell the owner their warranty is void.

With approved tuning upgrade as seen on the Copa, or SEAT approved tuning made available as done by the likes of Revo in other countries, this would all be avoided. There would be less hard feelings about non approved modifications and a more dedicated following created for the FR and Cupra badged cars. To boot, more money would go to SEAT’s coffers and they may choose to re-invest in to more motor racing events to keep the circle nice and round. Everyone would be happy.

Brand loyalty is a big thing, and the type of thing that has been highlighted in this thread has not done many favours for the OP or SEAT.

As things are, I know a lad with an 08 FR Leon who, because the dealer said changing the springs would affect x,y and z and therefore the warranty on those affected parts. This is the main reason the lad now wants rid of that car. A similar thing was mentioned when another mate sold his Leon FR and went elsewhere for its replacement. You can be sure these guys wont’ buy another SEAT just as I am sure the OP won’t either.

Perhaps these are extreme examples, but they are examples nonetheless.

As a businessman myself, I know it is not possible to keep 100% of customers happy 100% of the time, but it is clear there is an issue here, but more importantly, a definite business opportunity.

[/£0.02]

 

[Poverty]

I suppose you are referring to the to the SEAT Leon Copa, the anniversary model to celebrate seven years in the SEAT copa series that follows the DTM touring cars.

So you are aware that the 285PS power is produced using a BOSCH MP control unit with a map created by SEAT Sport SA, a tamed version of that used by the the petrol touring cars. The Miltek exhaust is a sponsored deal brokered between SEAT and the exhaust firm itself and it actually rolls out of the SEAT Sport headquarters in Spain like this (not a remap). The vehicle is sent to SEAT Sport as a standard Leon Cupra, the necessary parts are removed and new ones installed. Which is why the vehicle is delivered with 18 miles on rather than the normal 6, as each one is driven from the exit of the production line up the road to the SEAT Sport HQ (got a picture if you want it) and then back again in batches of 12 for shipping. Thats is why the old LCR was always delivered with 18 miles too! The only importer to show interest in the vehicle was the Netherlands, every other importer declined as it stood against the R32 and the S3.........Netherlands to do not have SEAT set up in a group function like all other importers! (all 5 brands under 1 roof)

Please do not patronise me, I am here on this forum discussing a topic I know a lot about! I dont speculate, I just speak fact! VWG R & D hey...where you based? how do you do R & D for all 5 brands in the UK? the only R & D for SEAT is carried out in Martorell Barcelona and I have a funny feeling, Audi is Ingolstadt in Germany.......& Marketing.......so you know the SEAT Brands values off the top of your head, and the Audi ones....and the VW ones!!

No R & D is carried out for VWG in the Uk so you must be an independant, or work in house at MK!!

No im talking about this one, not the copa.

http://pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=18742

I dont do R&D for any of the 5 brands, I just have 2 friends who are well placed within audi, and seeing as the audi R&D department is actually the one that drives the whole VAG development I know my fair share of ongoings.

Now you know about the Copa, but you have yet to acknowledge the VAG approved remaps in germany etc. If a remap is considered ok in germany, then surely its ok in england barring the obvious technicalitly of the stupidity of VW UK not wanting to approve them. Basically what im saying is yes its not approved, but it should be approved, and you dealers should be fighting the customers corner and giving us what we want. You guys should be lobbying to make remaps approved in the UK, it would only mean extra revenue for dealers!

 

[UncleFester]

I don't think anyone is questioning that what was done was outside of normal warranty condition - far from it. I just think that more needs to be understood about the remapping process and then an appropriate dealer warranty negotiated.

You can't say a remap destroyed an engine as there's a lot more involved. If you have to cover the cost of labour to find the fault which is then found to be a non warranty fault caused by remap than YOU are liable for all costs.

To invalidate ALL of the warranty without going through the above process seems harsh, irrespective of what the specific finance conditions may be.

As DjH says - there is a HUGE untapped market here ( not referring to SCN but to Cupra buyers generally) who are already brand loyal!

 

[seremotors]

Yeah bottom line is that SEAT Spain decide what is approved or not. SEAT UK are bound by the rules but can make amendments if they will cover the liability. Dealers wont work on a car unless every minute's labour is getting paid for. Its irrelevant that SEAT is part of VAG - even the dealer audit standards are different from Skoda thru SEAT thru VW thru Audi. Its unfair to say 'well Audi do x y z' as every marque is run differently. If you dont like the rules, dont buy the car - its not the manufacturers fault that the vehicle buyers dont read the terms until there is a problem. SEAT's warranty conditions have not changed since I started working for them. However technology has moved on considerably so while SEAT maybe should embrace a few mods, until they do dont expect any support. I say yet again, the owner (myself included) takes the risk

 

[SEATgod]

DJHORACE & UNCLEFESTER- Completely agree with you! SEAT could have an even more unique brand by embracing the tuning niche!

But as SEREMOTORS says, it is not SEAT UK who decide this...you have to convince SEAT Spain.

Poverty, that is the SEAT Leon Copa, some confusion has been construed around the output but the most powerful Leon officially produced is the SEAT Leon Copa @ 285PS.

ReMaps are when an independant takes a OE engine control unit and overwrites the mapping tables to produce more horsepower, smoother output, linear torque curve etc.

VWG (as in Volkswagen Group Globally) do not support/warrant any modification made to the vehicle that is not in that brands accessory package. It is part of your vehicle warranty t & c's it is also a standardised part of the warranty guidelines!

SEAT UK have to abide by the rules laid out by SEAT SA, the same with VWG UK and VWG AG -there is not different t & c's on warranty coverage depending on what country you live in!

But anyway...how is everybody??