We're all peachy - but it IS nice to have a reasoned discussion about this where the full facts from both sides are provided.
Non-Starting Cupra - Whats Wrong Now? (Inc Video)
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SEATgod blaitnely works for the local dealer or SEAT's UK head office which is just down the road...
Sitting on the fence for the past 2 pages of comments must have been a tad un-comfortable...
You fail to mention however that the dealer refused to carry out the now proven warrenty repair on the vehicle based on the comments posted here, so what does that say about them?
And why the sudden interest from the other side, trying to shift the blame 100% on me? Someone from the media been in touch have they?
Perrys SEAT in Aylesbury still look at the car, and fully understand the mods to the vehicle and what parts on the warranty are actually void, and not the whole car like my local dealer was quick to assume.
This arguement will run and run, becase I for one am not backing down...
Sitting on the fence for the past 2 pages of comments must have been a tad un-comfortable...
You fail to mention however that the dealer refused to carry out the now proven warrenty repair on the vehicle based on the comments posted here, so what does that say about them?
And why the sudden interest from the other side, trying to shift the blame 100% on me? Someone from the media been in touch have they?
Perrys SEAT in Aylesbury still look at the car, and fully understand the mods to the vehicle and what parts on the warranty are actually void, and not the whole car like my local dealer was quick to assume.
This arguement will run and run, becase I for one am not backing down...
They are not that bad, honnest. I can also take my Mondeo there at the same time for services etc, as they have Ford and SEAT in the same building...Ohhh, while I remember too. My Cupra had a grinding/creeky steering rack (Well known fault). The Leon was modded to the max when the LOCAL dealer fixed that under warrenty just fine 2 months ago...
Whats changed now then? Why has this car suddenly become untouchable to them, when a dealer 15 miles away will still look at the car?
Ohhh, while I remember too. My Cupra had a grinding/creeky steering rack (Well known fault). The Leon was modded to the max when the LOCAL dealer fixed that under warrenty just fine 2 months ago...
Whats changed now then? Why has this car suddenly become untouchable to them, when a dealer 15 miles away will still look at the car?
postcode lottery - mine goes to total-VAG and always will. I don't envisage buying a car with a warranty any time soon/
H8T WP
Guest
SO... if we installed the bosch unit which is already mapped by seat and we dont modify our existing tables with the oem unit then the warrenty is still applicable?
I dont understand how it can be said that a leon cupra has the components to run 240ps but then release the 'copa' which is running 285ps? Because as far as I am aware there are no upgrades to brakes etc? I agree with the general concensus though that it is a shame that SEAT do not embrace the tuner market? There is obviously money to be made in the market? What happened to giving the customer what they want? Or is the consumer just supposed to be told what there getting and they can either like it or lump it? What sort of way is this to treat customers who without which there would be no business at all?
SEATgod
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You won't be able to purschase the control unit as it is chassis written, so unless you have a chassis number for a Copa....you can't order one.
Even if you could get one, the vehicle has an immobilsier IV system so the chassis number is written into the ECU at factory and cannot be changed! - which wont match the details stored in the immobiliser control unit. All Leon's MY08 onwards run this type of immobiliser system.
If you research the Copa, you will find there are mechanical differences...it is not just an ECU change and an exhaust!
Like the Cupra and the Cupra R....there are so many differences!
The Copa's spec is classed as "standard" so it is covered under warranty! - simple as!
It is as left the factory!
Even if you could get one, the vehicle has an immobilsier IV system so the chassis number is written into the ECU at factory and cannot be changed! - which wont match the details stored in the immobiliser control unit. All Leon's MY08 onwards run this type of immobiliser system.
If you research the Copa, you will find there are mechanical differences...it is not just an ECU change and an exhaust!
Like the Cupra and the Cupra R....there are so many differences!
The Copa's spec is classed as "standard" so it is covered under warranty! - simple as!
It is as left the factory!
What happened to giving the customer what they want? Or is the consumer just supposed to be told what there getting and they can either like it or lump it? QUOTE]
Maybe Im missing a point here but is that not why some people buy certain cars
I would be interested to know the differences, and would appreciate if you could list them please. I am assuming you are either with SEAT UK or a SEAT dealer or have ETKA etc before you know these differences.
What happened to giving the customer what they want? Or is the consumer just supposed to be told what there getting and they can either like it or lump it? QUOTE]
Maybe Im missing a point here but is that not why some people buy certain cars
I own a SEAT because I love the brand it offers me what I want as a consumer, I have always been a fan since I first clapped eyes on a cupra, I am not suggesting that people dont have a choice but if there is a proven market for modifications or for people to individualise their SEAT which is evident in the amount of people on this site who own and modify their cars then why does the manufacturer not embrace it? I am not saying that people should modify regardless and then play ignorant when the **** hits the fan its a calculated risk people take when they modify the car, I just think its a shame.
Yes it is a huge shame, and the warranty implications are the only reason why I havent fitted a DPF replacement pipe. As a dealer, the tuning/warranty debate is only one of the issues we find a problem with SEAT UK. One thing to remember tho is that a standard car has to work in every country in all conditions so every setup is a compromise - to maximise performance would mean different tuning for every country which isnt really an option. Hence the demand for remaps etc.
I am definitely in favour of SEAT adopting a more favourable outlook on mods, the BTCC/WTCC was not capitalised on in any way other than to raise the model profile. Unfortunately until that time the small print will still shaft every potential tuner and modder re warranty.
I am definitely in favour of SEAT adopting a more favourable outlook on mods, the BTCC/WTCC was not capitalised on in any way other than to raise the model profile. Unfortunately until that time the small print will still shaft every potential tuner and modder re warranty.
H8T WP
Guest
i hate how as soon as a dealer thinks its modified they say "sorry we aint touching it" , its up to the seat to proove that any modifications may of cause the issures in the 1st place At their cost ! and then IF it turns out to be the customers fault they should be charged? No just get fobbed off automatically
Not wanting to be drawn into this, as I'm not really fussed either way. I just sit back and imagine just how many 'performance' SEAT's this site has sold for the company over the past 7 years or so. That aside my personal opinion is if you mod then you must take the responsibility yourself to maintain the vehicle and use a good specialist.
However there should at least be some level of flexibility, for example I recently had my Xenon lights fixed under warranty non of my modifications had any effect on the fact the light unit decided to pack in.
I would never presume to say its the manufacturers responsibility to fix a car that is damaged due to a modification, it is fair to say that they should at least repair items that are quite obviously unaffected.
There are literally thousands of parts on a car that have nothing to do with the engine or running gear.
Speaking as an outsider but someone who has been a passionate follower of SEAT for many years and has taken an almost professional interest in it's affairs. I feel that the current knowledge within dealerships about even standard cars is woefully inadequate.
The reason dealerships have this problem is even the so titled master technicians are nothing more than glorified part fitters. We all see the certificates on the wall, but I'm unconvinced that they mean a great deal. The real engineering talent is either, building the cars, tuning the cars or racing them. Gone are the days of the truly versatile motor mechanic.
Problem diagnosis seems to be limited to what the computer says, and if it says nothing then there isn't a problem according to the dealers. Now they can't change every part with impunity until they fix the problem they are now being far more strict it appears.
Why would someone choose to have their car serviced with a dealership when they can take it to any number of specialists to be done instead. If dealers lose that flexibility to look past some modifications they will begin to lose service business too. Looking at the long term picture for dealerships turning people away with modifications for any warranty claim will be bad for business.
I'm not saying its the dealers fault or manufacturers either, but rather than burning their bridges they should start to wake up and embrace the opportunities for further business.
Though going back to the original debate I think at the very least you should own the car first rather than doing this level of modification to a hire purchased car.
On the subject of the Copa, is this publicly known mechanical differences, such as the Eibach springs and bigger brakes and sportier exhaust as reported by most of the media outlets.
or
Is it rather less well known mechanical differences that have not been published. I would be surprised to see any further mechanical differences than those that are already utilised by the S3 engine.
If there are so many differences, please enlighten us rather than smugly making a statement that we should research it.
Going back to what I put above, this is another reason customers feel alienated. It's almost as if were too stupid to be allowed to further understand the engineering of our cars. I know many people walk through the door of a dealership and may aswell be buying a washing machine or fridge freezer for all they care. But were not all lemmings!
That aside my personal opinion is if you mod then you must take the responsibility yourself to maintain the vehicle and use a good specialist.However there should at least be some level of flexibility, for example I recently had my Xenon lights fixed under warranty non of my modifications had any effect on the fact the light unit decided to pack in.
I would never presume to say its the manufacturers responsibility to fix a car that is damaged due to a modification, it is fair to say that they should at least repair items that are quite obviously unaffected.
There are literally thousands of parts on a car that have nothing to do with the engine or running gear.
Speaking as an outsider but someone who has been a passionate follower of SEAT for many years and has taken an almost professional interest in it's affairs. I feel that the current knowledge within dealerships about even standard cars is woefully inadequate.
The reason dealerships have this problem is even the so titled master technicians are nothing more than glorified part fitters. We all see the certificates on the wall, but I'm unconvinced that they mean a great deal. The real engineering talent is either, building the cars, tuning the cars or racing them. Gone are the days of the truly versatile motor mechanic.
Problem diagnosis seems to be limited to what the computer says, and if it says nothing then there isn't a problem according to the dealers. Now they can't change every part with impunity until they fix the problem they are now being far more strict it appears.
Why would someone choose to have their car serviced with a dealership when they can take it to any number of specialists to be done instead. If dealers lose that flexibility to look past some modifications they will begin to lose service business too. Looking at the long term picture for dealerships turning people away with modifications for any warranty claim will be bad for business.
I'm not saying its the dealers fault or manufacturers either, but rather than burning their bridges they should start to wake up and embrace the opportunities for further business.
Though going back to the original debate I think at the very least you should own the car first rather than doing this level of modification to a hire purchased car.
On the subject of the Copa, is this publicly known mechanical differences, such as the Eibach springs and bigger brakes and sportier exhaust as reported by most of the media outlets.
or
Is it rather less well known mechanical differences that have not been published. I would be surprised to see any further mechanical differences than those that are already utilised by the S3 engine.
If there are so many differences, please enlighten us rather than smugly making a statement that we should research it.
Going back to what I put above, this is another reason customers feel alienated. It's almost as if were too stupid to be allowed to further understand the engineering of our cars. I know many people walk through the door of a dealership and may aswell be buying a washing machine or fridge freezer for all they care. But were not all lemmings!
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Again, that is due to SEAT's factory policy. Why run the risk of spending a couple hours on diagnosis and maybe not get paid either by the customer or by SEAT? At the end of the day time is money and at £60+ an hour, someones wages depends on profitable work.
We dont mind working on modded cars but ONLY if the customer agrees to be straight with us on the mods and agrees to bear any costs which SEAT wont meet. Obviously a warranty on say a heater motor wont be invalidated by a set of lowered springs.
We had a DSG problem and SEAT told us to do something. The customer disagreed and took it elsewhere. SEAT gave the other dealer different advice and now the customer is reporting us to SEAT. See the position dealers are in? Its impossible!!!
Bear in mind that the car in question on this thread is heavily modified so its no wonder the dealer didnt want to get involved. No excuse for rudeness tho or for not talking it over with SEAT if that was the case.
We dont mind working on modded cars but ONLY if the customer agrees to be straight with us on the mods and agrees to bear any costs which SEAT wont meet. Obviously a warranty on say a heater motor wont be invalidated by a set of lowered springs.
We had a DSG problem and SEAT told us to do something. The customer disagreed and took it elsewhere. SEAT gave the other dealer different advice and now the customer is reporting us to SEAT. See the position dealers are in? Its impossible!!!
Bear in mind that the car in question on this thread is heavily modified so its no wonder the dealer didnt want to get involved. No excuse for rudeness tho or for not talking it over with SEAT if that was the case.
I can see the dealers point to some extent on this one.
If a standard car goes in with an issue, then it is upto the dealer to spend 2 mins or 2 days or whatever it takes to find the problem. At SEATs cost if still within the warrenty period.
If a modified car goes in it is harder to prove what has caused the issue. A modification could have so many knock on effects.
It is harsh that modifications seem to null and void the whole warrenty as some faults could be unrelated. For example an issue with the interior trim won't be related to a remap.
I would however expect a dealer to spend a short amount of time trying to diagonse the problem if it wasn't immediaetly obvious that the mod had caused the fault. This is basic goodwill, after someone has spent £20,000+ on a car this is the least to expect. If the mod could have caused the issue then maybe yes charge the customer for further investigation.
The way dealers treat customers sometimes regarding aftersales is appauling, they just don't care and people will go elsewhere for their next new purchase.
I did read that Subaru were going to implement a system that could detect any remap that had been out on the car, even if it has been removed and if any was detected the warrenty would be void.
SEAT should however cater for the people who want to modify their cars, however the market is probably so small it isn't worth the investment in the U.K.
I also felt when I was a SEAT owner that they were bottle of the barrel in the VW group :-(
With regard to the Relay which caused all this grief, I had a long chat with My local VAG specialist regarding this thread, and he reckons that this relay is on its 7th revision, and is still causing problems due to its poor design, and if VAG designed a proper relay that it would cost £40 and probably outlast the car. He also believes that the VAG beancounters are ultimately responsible for these relays, as its cheaper to source a £7 relay than a £40 one...
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SEATgod
Guest
Hello ZBoyd
Please do not think I am being smug!
There will be differences between the standard Leon Cupra and the Copa, much of the technology has been taken from the S3, a lot must have been developed in house. - mainly the running gear!
The S3 is a quattro so the 280 PS can be divided between the 4 half shafts...we are still putting the power through 2! There is no official changes list I can find in English that gives a complete list, there are ones in Dutch...but I don't speak it! My point purely was that unless the vehicle drives out of the factory gates in that condition, warranty has every right to reject a claim. - the vehcile is not remapped...its standard!
The Dealer you took your vehicle too for the lights, sounds like a bloody good Dealer. But if your vehicle was a non starter could you HONESTLY say that any of the changes have absaloutly no affect on the cause!! The Dealer made a decision on this vehicle based on the initial inspection, a front mounted intercooler four times the size of the original is pretty significant, as is the remap work and boost control devices! I don't think attitude helped either! May have been a different story if he was complaining of a rear wiper fault for example!
I agree in part on your opinion regarding Dealership Technicians, I know SEAT Master Technicians in the country that are smarter than most engine tuners, race technicians.....I can also say the majority will be of a maturer age. The issue now is technicians are simply told to plug in a machine and follow the instructions. Apprenticeships just aren't the same anymore! When I was a lad I was cutting valve seats, regrinding crankshafts and re-prohiling cam,s...a technican knew hpw to use a latche and a cylinder bore measuring tool!
In todats age, parts are cheaper than labour.....in lesser countries people pay for major units to be overhauled, this country 10 hours to rebuild a gearbox is £1000 without parts.....cheaper to junk the box and fit a new one!
Please do not think I am being smug!
There will be differences between the standard Leon Cupra and the Copa, much of the technology has been taken from the S3, a lot must have been developed in house. - mainly the running gear!
The S3 is a quattro so the 280 PS can be divided between the 4 half shafts...we are still putting the power through 2! There is no official changes list I can find in English that gives a complete list, there are ones in Dutch...but I don't speak it! My point purely was that unless the vehicle drives out of the factory gates in that condition, warranty has every right to reject a claim. - the vehcile is not remapped...its standard!
The Dealer you took your vehicle too for the lights, sounds like a bloody good Dealer. But if your vehicle was a non starter could you HONESTLY say that any of the changes have absaloutly no affect on the cause!! The Dealer made a decision on this vehicle based on the initial inspection, a front mounted intercooler four times the size of the original is pretty significant, as is the remap work and boost control devices! I don't think attitude helped either! May have been a different story if he was complaining of a rear wiper fault for example!
I agree in part on your opinion regarding Dealership Technicians, I know SEAT Master Technicians in the country that are smarter than most engine tuners, race technicians.....I can also say the majority will be of a maturer age. The issue now is technicians are simply told to plug in a machine and follow the instructions. Apprenticeships just aren't the same anymore! When I was a lad I was cutting valve seats, regrinding crankshafts and re-prohiling cam,s...a technican knew hpw to use a latche and a cylinder bore measuring tool!
In todats age, parts are cheaper than labour.....in lesser countries people pay for major units to be overhauled, this country 10 hours to rebuild a gearbox is £1000 without parts.....cheaper to junk the box and fit a new one!
Only because dealers need to charge an extortionate £90 + vat per hour labour to pay for the flashy showrooms. If you dont't think that's extortion, then consider that a fully trained CISCO engineer might get £45 to £75 per hour and they do a lot more than click a few buttons on what is little more than a semi intelligent terminal. Even the average GP is only on £30 to £50 an hour!!
Essentially what is happening is that once the manufacturers warranty has expired, you lose the service trade to specialised independants who charge half the price for the same, in some cases better quality of work.
Blame as such wasn't really a part of the point I was trying to get across. As you say it's not really a dealer specific issue, it's a group policy. If you read it back you'll see I have the opinion that if you go to the extent the OP has then you really need to be talking to a specialist most of the time.
We were supposed to be shown around the MK HQ training facilities a few years back and that never materialised sadly. We got the opportunity to visit HQ back in 2004 and were taken through the new franchise intro by the then SEAT Head of After Sales and toured the site.
The level of training regarding the technicians was something we were generally very interested in finding more about, but that part of the tour was cancelled at the last minute due to unforeseen reasons. We were even supposed to be having a factory tour earlier this year too, again at the last minute it didn't happen.
My personal opinion is though I understand the position your under as dealers, and the manufacturers stance too. It's good to have more transparency and in the sense of educating customers its no bad thing this thread has come to light even if it was for the wrong reasons.
There is obviously more to the story than meets the eye and most definitely different sides to it. Though I have no opinion on the individual case regarding the OP, other than I feel they shouldn't of been modifying a car they did not own.
My point was, taking modified cars aside for a moment, the technical knowledge displayed by dealers many of us believe is not up to scratch. We all know parts fail that are difficult to diagnose on standard cars, and many dealers get the hump even looking at this kind of scenario. The customer is frustrated because they know there is a fault, the dealers are frustrated by SEAT technical who will turn around and tell the dealer they can't spend any time trying to diagnose the problem because they won't get paid for the work even if they successfully fix the issue. Maybe the manufacturer is frustrated at producing costly parts that may not need to be replaced.
Even commonly understood issues, such as duff sensors are scorned upon, and dealers take a huge amount of time trying to diagnose simple problems that could be looked at in a matter of minutes. If its not in the manual or tech sheets then it's not worth investigating it seems. Many cars come out of dealers with more problems than when they went in. I'm not saying all dealers are like this, far from it we know there are exceptions out there.
But we read so many times about cars taken into dealers with one issue and coming out with another. Now either their incompetent or the level of training isn't really being applied to the network in the way we might expect.
I'm not saying this is a fact, but its the public opinion based on what people see and experience. A better understanding of the issues dealers, manufacturers and customers face would be beneficial to all.
Working alongside customers to help diagnose commonly known issues and put in procedures to easily and quickly check those commonly known faults instead of everyone trying to cut through all the red tape first. Maybe the manufacturer should be more transparent with known issues and tech releases to help customers better understand what a fault may be that they are experiencing.
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