110 TDi Limp Mode - Advice?

Cupra Kid

Has a TDI!!
Oct 13, 2005
3,380
1
Chesterfield, Derbyshire
Hi Guys

Got a 110 TDI Toledo and in the cold weather thats just arrived it seems to slip in to limp home mode when the engines cold and under load occasionally.

Its not a daily occurrence but I want to get it sorted. No engine light comes on but I would describe the way it drives as being 'turbo-less'. If you switch the engine off and then back on again it resolves itself and carries on flawlessly.

My thought is its probably a sensor as if it was mechanical switching it off and on again would not resolve the issue?

MAF, Boost sensor?

Any advice or pointers appreciated :)
 

Muttley

Catch that diesel!
Mar 17, 2006
4,987
31
North Kent
Limp mode is always reset by switching the car off, whatever the cause.

The usual suspects are sticky turbo vanes or sticky EGR, both causing overboost. The CEL doesn't come on, but a fault will be logged, often 17965/P1557/005463 - Charge Pressure Control: Positive Deviation.
 

Cupra Kid

Has a TDI!!
Oct 13, 2005
3,380
1
Chesterfield, Derbyshire
I don't see how switching the car off and on would unstick the turbo vanes? Surely if they were stuck they would stay stuck?

What do you reccomend for cleaning the system out, I'd really rather leave both parts on the car if possible. Its only done 95k so by no means a high miler.

Seen Wynns turbo cleaner for around a tennner and and some revive turbo and EGR cleaner for £45. You get a lot more revive for the money and I've read good things about it.

What symptoms would a failed MAF cause, I've unplugged it an gone for a drive and its the same kinda feeling as though the turbo's holding back.
 

Muttley

Catch that diesel!
Mar 17, 2006
4,987
31
North Kent
If unplugging the MAF makes no difference to the symptoms then the MAF is not likely to be at fault. Faulty MAFs don't usually cause limp mode.

VNT turbos have a set of vanes in the entrance to the exhaust turbine. These vanes change the area of the inlet by tilting against the airflow, but are carefully shaped to avoid causing turbulence in the flow. See this page, especially the amimated gif at the bottom.

If the car is mostly driven around town or in commuting traffic the exhaust and the turbo never reach full running temperature, and carbon deposits from unburned fuel (mostly caused by the EGR system) build up in the exhaust. These eventually start to obstruct the vanes.

The vanes change the area of the inlet to modulate the speed of the exhaust gas flow onto the turbine blades. At low revs the engine produces less exhaust gas, and the unmodified gas flow in the exhaust manifold is too slow to spin the turbine up. By reducing the area of the inlet, the gas speed is increased (same mass through a smaller area) and the turbine spins up to produce useful boost. The action of the vanes increases the back pressure in the exhaust manifold, but this is more than countered by the increase in boost pressure and thus engine power.

When the engine is switched off, the vanes are spring-biased to the fully open position, which is the position they adopt when the engine is at full revs. As the engine is started and vacuum is produced, the vanes are pulled to their fully closed position - which leaves a minimum area for the exhaust to go through. So the vanes go through a full sweep every time the engine is started, and don't stick at this point.

As engine load increases, the exhaust gas volume increases and the vanes are commanded to open up to keep the turbine spinning to produce maximum boost. Turbine speed and the boost pressure it produces are controlled solely by the vane position. In a clean turbo, the vanes reach their fully open position when the engine reaches maximum revs.

The vanes are being asked to move against exhaust pressure, which is loading them aerodynamically, and makes it harder for them to move. Carbon fouling can add enough resistance to vane movement for them to stick instead of opening properly. If they stick, as the revs increase and the gas volume increases, the gas speed through the vanes gets too high, spinning the turbo too fast and resulting in overboost, which triggers limp mode.

This is the most common cause of limp mode in the circumstances you describe.

It is sometimes possible to relieve the turbo by getting it up to a good high temperature for a few minutes - the "Italian tune-up". You need to be sure your car is in good condition, all servicing carried out properly and no cooling or lubrication issues. Find a piece of dual carriageway, preferably with an uphill gradient, and not too busy. Drive up it at 70mph in 3rd, which should have your engine close to maximum revs. Keep this up for five minutes or so - this will get the turbo hot enough to start burning off the carbon deposits.

This does work, I've done it in my old Toledo TDI 110 and in the present TDI 150, and in both cases it has eliminated the occurrence of limp mode at motorway overtaking speeds. Some people have spoken of seeing sparks out of the exhaust when doing this at night - this is the carbon particles going out of the exhaust, still burning.

After a few minutes of this, continue to drive for another 5-10 minutes at normal engine speeds, to allow the turbo to cool off gradually.

Chemical cleaners can work, but you have to get them into the exhaust turbine and out again without damaging anything. Each has their own way of going about it.
 

Cupra Kid

Has a TDI!!
Oct 13, 2005
3,380
1
Chesterfield, Derbyshire
Italian tune up first then as this is as close as it gets to free.

Its not a very sooty car to be honest and it spends most of its life doing 50-60mph A road journeys. Its properly serviced and everythings in good order - apart from this slight issue.
 

Seatmann

Rough around the edges
Sep 16, 2010
5,575
10
Scotlanda
Italian tune up first then as this is as close as it gets to free.

Its not a very sooty car to be honest and it spends most of its life doing 50-60mph A road journeys. Its properly serviced and everythings in good order - apart from this slight issue.

I think that's most likely the problem, get hose revs up. You wont notice the soot outside the car, it's all in the turbo and cat but yeh, a good thrash should help move things along.

The fact it's doing it only when cold suggests the vanes probably aren't that bad. If the italian thing doesn't work you might want to get scan for fault codes just in case there's something else going on.
 

asthpsw

Full Member
Apr 23, 2004
524
1
Southampton
Limp mode is always reset by switching the car off, whatever the cause.

The usual suspects are sticky turbo vanes or sticky EGR, both causing overboost. The CEL doesn't come on, but a fault will be logged, often 17965/P1557/005463 - Charge Pressure Control: Positive Deviation.

Muttley, just picking up on the "sticky EGR"................is this sticking open or closed ?......why I ask is because my EGR has been closed for years (probably 70,000 miles) using the method described by ssstew at the time (closing of the vacuum line). So is my closed EGR going to contribute to my very occasional Limp mode ? Infact the only time I get Limp mode nowdays is when I do what you describle re Italian Tune up.....at about 3800 or more RPM up a hill in 3rd gear. (& only when I've accelerated from about 1200-1500 RPM in that 3rd gear......ie if I accelate up the same hill by going up the gears it doesn't trigger limp mode......why is this ?)
One other thing Muttley, when the Engine is off the Vanes are Open to the maximum and the same as maximum RPM...........do they really go fully closed when you first start it & on tick over (ie when it doesn't require boost) or does it only close the vanes when the demand is put on the Engine at low revs ?.....................why I ask this question is because I "exercise" my vanes often and knowing that they can be fully open when switched off (& I thought at tick over) I also like to accelerate hard in a higher gear (3rd) from low revs (1200 rpm) occasionally to try & put the vanes in the fully closed position (by putting a boost demand)............is this theory right ? and OK ?

Thanks

Paul
 

Seatmann

Rough around the edges
Sep 16, 2010
5,575
10
Scotlanda
If the egr is disconnected via the vacuum pipe then it isn't going to do anything and no it wont be contributing.

I think some logs would help with your problem, it sounds like the boost might be creeping up as you hold the pedal down. Maybe the N75 isn't doing it's job right. It could be leaking a bit causing extra boost.

Also without vacuum there's no boost which suggests the vanes are in the no boost position when the engine's off. If you get a vac leak you tend to get lag because it takes longer to generate the same vacuum to operate the vnt.

Try cleaning the N75, flush it through with some switch cleaner.
 

Muttley

Catch that diesel!
Mar 17, 2006
4,987
31
North Kent
asthpsw wrote

Muttley, just picking up on the "sticky EGR"................is this sticking open or closed ?

In our diesel engines, the EGR valve makes sticky, carbonised sludge in the inlet manifold that hardens and builds up - it's the hot, sooty exhaust gas meeting the oily crankcase vapours in the inlet charge that does it. Eventually this can lead to the valve sticking open as the revs rise, which lets too much exhaust pressure into the inlet and leads to overboost.

......why I ask is because my EGR has been closed for years (probably 70,000 miles) using the method described by ssstew at the time (closing of the vacuum line).

So is my closed EGR going to contribute to my very occasional Limp mode ?

Not if it's still closed off. What method have you used to block the vacuum line?


Infact the only time I get Limp mode nowdays is when I do what you describle re Italian Tune up.....at about 3800 or more RPM up a hill in 3rd gear. (& only when I've accelerated from about 1200-1500 RPM in that 3rd gear......ie if I accelate up the same hill by going up the gears it doesn't trigger limp mode......why is this ?)

That's a very good question. It might be worth checking the actuator movement to see if there is any stiffness, and lubricating the linkage. You should be able to move the actuator arm by hand from underneath. The vacuum lines to the N75 valve should also be looked at, and tested if you have a vacuum pump, or you can test by sucking on the pipe to the actuator and watching it to see if it moves. The actuators themselves can fail by leaking, and this might also lead to your problem.


One other thing Muttley, when the Engine is off the Vanes are Open to the maximum and the same as maximum RPM...........do they really go fully closed when you first start it & on tick over (ie when it doesn't require boost) or does it only close the vanes when the demand is put on the Engine at low revs ?

The vanes will go to the minimum opening position after you start because the revs are low and this position gets the turbo spinning faster. You want the turbo spun up as far as possible for quick response when power is demanded.

.....................why I ask this question is because I "exercise" my vanes often and knowing that they can be fully open when switched off (& I thought at tick over) I also like to accelerate hard in a higher gear (3rd) from low revs (1200 rpm) occasionally to try & put the vanes in the fully closed position (by putting a boost demand)............is this theory right ? and OK ?​

I've never actually observed the actuator at switch on, and can't find any references right now to back up my words, but I'm sure I've read that the TDI engines are on boost all the time, which is why the VNT turbo is such an advantage for them. Diesels work by varying the injected fuel quantity, so always burn lean except at full chat, and staying on boost effectively increases the compression ratio, making for a more efficient engine cycle.
 

Pimped up vario

Cordy Cruizer
Nov 20, 2009
1,291
0
Belfast N Ireland
Just a wee adition of information. On the exhaust gas side, I noticed in my AHU tdi that when toodling around the exhaust gas temperatures hover in and around 200 degrees celcius.
 

asthpsw

Full Member
Apr 23, 2004
524
1
Southampton
Thanks Guys for the Info :

Muttley, I clamped the vacuum hose closed of the EGR using a small hose clamp.......just after it comes out of the valve. This has been on there for about 70,000 miles.

there is a slight resistance in just one place when the VNT actuator is moved manually..........How can I make sure that this resistance area is constantly going through by the vanes....to help scrape the carbon off the vanes ?????

I do lubricate the actuator from the top as detailed years ago on this forum (ie loosen up with WD40 a little while after using the car........then use a lubrication spray)

Paul
 

Muttley

Catch that diesel!
Mar 17, 2006
4,987
31
North Kent
You're doing all the right things. I'd guess that the carbon build-up has got to the point where it's obstructing the vanes just enough to give you the occasional limp mode episode. The build-up is happening in spite of the vane movement, and exercising the vanes is obviously not moving it. If an Italian Tune-up doesn't help then it's time for a cleaner of some kind.
 

asthpsw

Full Member
Apr 23, 2004
524
1
Southampton
You're doing all the right things. I'd guess that the carbon build-up has got to the point where it's obstructing the vanes just enough to give you the occasional limp mode episode. The build-up is happening in spite of the vane movement, and exercising the vanes is obviously not moving it. If an Italian Tune-up doesn't help then it's time for a cleaner of some kind.

Thanks for the info again..............I'll try the Italian tune up............the only thing that worrys me with that once I get past 4000 RPM it just shoots up to red line ...........just worried re damage (high reving Diesel engine and all that).

Found something strange today that if I go up an incline in 3rd WOT and continue I'll probably get to 3800RPM before limp mode............but if I say at about 3000RPM decide to engage cruise control (to go up the hill at a constant high RPM) it immediately goes into Limp Mode. Found that before on an long incline on M3 that 70mph top gear in Cruise Control when I want to take over it's already in limp mode....what I find strange is as it's constant speed the vanes shouldn't be closing down ....so where does the Overboost come from ?

Paul
 

Muttley

Catch that diesel!
Mar 17, 2006
4,987
31
North Kent
The ECU will limit the revs to keep the smoke down, and the limitations of the diesel combustion process will cause steep drop-off of torque above 4500 or so.
 

Cupra Kid

Has a TDI!!
Oct 13, 2005
3,380
1
Chesterfield, Derbyshire
Right gone for a good run at high revs in third and its running better. Also cleaned the MAF with contact cleaner as it was dirty and I've also had the battery out and cleaned the earthing points underneath which seems to of helped with the slow starts.

I think the next plan is to feed it Revive power restorer as looking at the EGR and turbo I'm pretty sure I'll bugger something up by removing them to clean them out as the space is so tight to work in.
 

Cupra Kid

Has a TDI!!
Oct 13, 2005
3,380
1
Chesterfield, Derbyshire
New problem today, car was slow to start again and as I was driving along my head lights dimmed and wipers slowed down. So I am guessing there is either an issue with the battery or alternator?

I'm pretty sure its the original battery so I'm charging the battery from the GTi up which is fairly recent and if the toledo runs good I will get a new TDI size battery at the weekend. If its not that then I am going to be up **** creek I think.
 
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