very debatable indeed. has sonny jim driven his dads VXR & then had a go in a LCR? my dad has one too (and he is probably bigger than your dad too!) and in my opinion the banger would come out marginally in front if both cars were either standard or had like for like mods.
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First of all you're comparing apples with oranges and well you know it, we were discussing standard cars mate. The Z20/C20 series engine in the Astra VXR is as old as the hills and as such when tuned can not punch its weight against the VAG 1.8T let alone the 2.0T. As you can see from your own graph, torque comes in late, gets to a reasonable level then drops off. A 1.8T with the same setup makes a bigger and flatter torque curve and generates 20bhp more from 200cc less. A car that is effectively a generation behind the Astra VXR.
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DargY
Guest
Ok torque comes in late but when you’re running that amount of boost there’s no point bringing that torque in any earlier, not unless you want your TC to take over and burn a whole in your tyres. Perhaps your torque comes in sooner because that car doesn’t quite have as much boost, thus being able to come in sooner. I could go to a tuners and get them to map my car so its hits 260bhp @4000rpm and hold there until 6800 (in your so called flat line). What’s the point when you could boost it to 270bhp between 5000-6000rpm. It’s all about putting that power to the road and boosting lower down would be pointless.
Ok engines.
Three petrol turbocharged engines are used in the Astra 5 model range
Z20LET
Z20LEL
Z20LER
The vxr:
Z20LEH (240PS)
The vxr has a completely different engine to the old ones so I don’t think you can comment on its capabilities.
http://www.courtenaysport.co.uk/default.htm?page=118
Take a look, at the above link. All differences are stated.
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Amen to that Shamoo. We will always be fiercely loyal to our respective chariots, that is until we buy a new one!! I remember owning a Clio 1.8 16v, and I loved everything about it. Looking back now, it was a little fragile.....
Still rapid though!!
Still rapid though!!
Nobody's talking about a flat BHP line mate, we're talking torque as at the end of the day, that is what you drive on unless you rev to the red line in each gear 100% of the time. Boost does not equal BHP or Torque. The BHP line is the shape it is because the turbo can't physically spin up any quicker. A good indicator of the inadequacy of the Vauxhall engine's induction/exhaust system. A 20 valve engine boosts earlier and holds on longer due to the increased breathability brought about by having an extra valve in each cylinder.
I'm very well aware of the spec of the Z20 engine. It started life as the C20 a lonnnnnngg time ago. It has been upgraded over the years but the basic induction/exhaust and block has changed very little over the years and are a comparitively old design. The 1.8Ts are no spring chickens but the cylinder head in particular was years ahead of any other manufacturer. The extra 4 valves make a world of difference. This is why you will see guys having gone to Megane and Astra turbos commenting that the 16 valvers are nowhere near as flexible as the 20 valve 1.8T with variable valve timing.
I feel I can speak quantatively on this matter as I've owned 3 Vectra-Cs and driven 2 Astra VXRs (we get them tax free and very cheap here). So I have a good level of experience of the build quality of modern Vauxhalls as well as their performance. The power delivery of the standard Astra VXR is hugely aggressive, then it hits a brick wall and dies completely, very much like the VAG PD diesels. I'm not having a go at you personally mate but the engine itself is not in the same league as the Volkswagen Group 1.8 turbo. Overall build quality is also nowhere close to the Leon. The 1.8T engine is good for at least 250k miles if properly maintained as is the rest of the car around it. Vauxhall can't even get its diesels to go that far without major problems.
I don't think the VXR would handle any better than the LCR, nor would it pull away in a straight line. Around corners in the twisties, the braver the driver would win.
You don't seriously expect anyone on here to slate there own car though? Make a thread on the vauxall forum, and see how many people slate the LCR. It's all much of a muchness..
You don't seriously expect anyone on here to slate there own car though? Make a thread on the vauxall forum, and see how many people slate the LCR. It's all much of a muchness..
DargY
Guest
That’s the thing. No1 over at our forums would slag anything. That’s not how we are. I haven’t slagged anyone or anything on this forum. Infact, I said I loved cupra R's. I'm just being realistic. I'm not going have my car anywhere near 50k miles let alone 250k so why would that interest me.
If you feel the cupra would win in a straight that’s fear enough, not bothered. When you come across a vxr give it a go. I very much dought you'd win, but words on a forum wont prove anything.
Feel free to come to vxr forums and see what reception you get. I'm sure it would be better than the one I’ve received here.
If you feel the cupra would win in a straight that’s fear enough, not bothered. When you come across a vxr give it a go. I very much dought you'd win, but words on a forum wont prove anything.
Feel free to come to vxr forums and see what reception you get. I'm sure it would be better than the one I’ve received here.
Can i be honest? I don't really care .... there's so many variables in there. Only way to really test would be to give one of each to a proper driver and let them do a few laps / 1/4 mile runs and see what happens.
I know i saw a few on the way to Trax last year and Mike ( motorserv) and myself kept up on the M1 with no problem, then a trio of Monaro VXR appeared and blew us all into the weeds
I know i saw a few on the way to Trax last year and Mike ( motorserv) and myself kept up on the M1 with no problem, then a trio of Monaro VXR appeared and blew us all into the weeds
Takes a weird type of person to stand up, hand-on-heart and say there Vauxhall is built to BMW standards, with Audi performance and Jap reliability.
All of which, no Vauxhall owner can say.. without smirking.
I can say my Leon is all of the above. It's silent at 70. No cabin squeeking, no tapping or vibrating. Last car I experienced that kind of silent running in? BMW 330Ci. That says a lot for build quality. The fact it can hold its own against a Sapphire Cosworth as well.. well that's just a damn big bonus.
Vauxhall just don't come to mind when people list 10 fast cars.. and I'm not talking about supercars here. I'm talking Focus RS, Civic Type-R, NSX, Supra, Impreza, LCR.. etc etc. The list goes on.
Time will tell whether or not the VXR will make its mark on the pop-culture of the auto-world. I don't think it will, never in a way like the XR or RS or STi and VW's GTi range did. Think how many legendary firms have tuned Fords over the years... Tickford, Cosworth and Ford's own SVE.
Vauxhall have who? Lotus... and when Lotus go to down on a car they really go to town on it. New engine, new running gear, new sus and springs, new everything. And then you whack a Vauxhall badge on the front, lowering the tone sufficiently.
Why did "daddy" buy a VXR, might I ask? With regards to the 1.1 Corsa.. they're as much fun to drive as a... well.. Corsa :S Sorry but it's be-all and end-all of souless, lifeless, gutless driving.
The earlier comment about the shape Vauxhall has opted for, the "door-wedge" look.. well yes, it'll be so out-dated and so "2007" in a few years time it'll add a whole new level ugliness. Calibra, as mentioned, is a fine example.
Where as, for example, Ford define a shape, they define a genre, almost in which other companies follow suit shortly after.. mainly because it holds water. The new Focus look and design is superb. It isn't "too much" in any one way, therefore it won't stink of the era in which it was designed a few years from now.
Vauxhalls remind me of 3-spoke alloys.
All of which, no Vauxhall owner can say.. without smirking.
I can say my Leon is all of the above. It's silent at 70. No cabin squeeking, no tapping or vibrating. Last car I experienced that kind of silent running in? BMW 330Ci. That says a lot for build quality. The fact it can hold its own against a Sapphire Cosworth as well.. well that's just a damn big bonus.
Vauxhall just don't come to mind when people list 10 fast cars.. and I'm not talking about supercars here. I'm talking Focus RS, Civic Type-R, NSX, Supra, Impreza, LCR.. etc etc. The list goes on.
Time will tell whether or not the VXR will make its mark on the pop-culture of the auto-world. I don't think it will, never in a way like the XR or RS or STi and VW's GTi range did. Think how many legendary firms have tuned Fords over the years... Tickford, Cosworth and Ford's own SVE.
Vauxhall have who? Lotus... and when Lotus go to down on a car they really go to town on it. New engine, new running gear, new sus and springs, new everything. And then you whack a Vauxhall badge on the front, lowering the tone sufficiently.
Why did "daddy" buy a VXR, might I ask? With regards to the 1.1 Corsa.. they're as much fun to drive as a... well.. Corsa :S Sorry but it's be-all and end-all of souless, lifeless, gutless driving.
The earlier comment about the shape Vauxhall has opted for, the "door-wedge" look.. well yes, it'll be so out-dated and so "2007" in a few years time it'll add a whole new level ugliness. Calibra, as mentioned, is a fine example.
Where as, for example, Ford define a shape, they define a genre, almost in which other companies follow suit shortly after.. mainly because it holds water. The new Focus look and design is superb. It isn't "too much" in any one way, therefore it won't stink of the era in which it was designed a few years from now.
Vauxhalls remind me of 3-spoke alloys.
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DargY
Guest
Another example of me being realistic and you guys not.
Its not a BMW nor is it a Audi, its a SEAT. You don’t see me bringing lotus into this do you?
Indeed mine is just a Vauxhall but you’re just a SEAT. I'm not going into which manufacture is the best, earns the most, and has the most dealerships. Title of this post was cupra R vs vxR not BMW, AUDI, LOTUS, HOLDEN.
I'm not going to sit here and say the cupra isnt a nice car becuase it is.,I'm realistic. I guess shamoo can shed some light on what he thinks of the vxr as he's probably been in it more than his cupra.
Now, I know for a fact that if I were to personally take you out in my car you would say its a nice car. Its a hatchback not a top of the range sports car. Again I’m just being realistic and you guys don’t seem to think there’s anything out there but SEAT cupra R and to be honest I really don’t think there in the top rankings. The FR perhaps, but you the cupra R is old news. Perhaps I should be in the new Leon thread.
Its not a BMW nor is it a Audi, its a SEAT. You don’t see me bringing lotus into this do you?
Indeed mine is just a Vauxhall but you’re just a SEAT. I'm not going into which manufacture is the best, earns the most, and has the most dealerships. Title of this post was cupra R vs vxR not BMW, AUDI, LOTUS, HOLDEN.
I'm not going to sit here and say the cupra isnt a nice car becuase it is.,I'm realistic. I guess shamoo can shed some light on what he thinks of the vxr as he's probably been in it more than his cupra.
Now, I know for a fact that if I were to personally take you out in my car you would say its a nice car. Its a hatchback not a top of the range sports car. Again I’m just being realistic and you guys don’t seem to think there’s anything out there but SEAT cupra R and to be honest I really don’t think there in the top rankings. The FR perhaps, but you the cupra R is old news. Perhaps I should be in the new Leon thread.
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My tuppence worth.....
I think the VXR is a nice looking car and, although I've never driven one, I'm sure it is a lot of fun. I bought an LCR because I prefer the look of them, even though they are not as quick as some other hot hatches.
Do I care? Not really. In the real world my car has ample power for my requirements. The occasional time I'm up at the lights with some chav in a souped up hatchaback I'm not going to lose sleep over pulling away slight slower, it just doesn't matter to me.
As a side note, I think all modern VW/Audi/Seat/Vauxhall/Fords are built to a much higher standard than even just 10 years ago. Properly looked after there is no reason for them not to last an extremely long time. German cars used to be way out in front but the gap is no longer significant.
LCRs, VXRs, STs, GTIs, R32s, S3s etc. all all great cars and something anybody would be proud to own. Which you choose is personal taste. There is no right answer.
I think the VXR is a nice looking car and, although I've never driven one, I'm sure it is a lot of fun. I bought an LCR because I prefer the look of them, even though they are not as quick as some other hot hatches.
Do I care? Not really. In the real world my car has ample power for my requirements. The occasional time I'm up at the lights with some chav in a souped up hatchaback I'm not going to lose sleep over pulling away slight slower, it just doesn't matter to me.
As a side note, I think all modern VW/Audi/Seat/Vauxhall/Fords are built to a much higher standard than even just 10 years ago. Properly looked after there is no reason for them not to last an extremely long time. German cars used to be way out in front but the gap is no longer significant.
LCRs, VXRs, STs, GTIs, R32s, S3s etc. all all great cars and something anybody would be proud to own. Which you choose is personal taste. There is no right answer.
so one blokes opinion speaks for a whole forum does it? i haven't slagged off the VXR but as i've said earlier i think it has been overrated by the motoring press (or my mum & dad have a duff one!) it is a good car and maybe i need another go to re-evaluate it but so far i find my LCR easier to drive quickly and generally a nicer place to be. i suppose its a case of different strokes for different folks................. if we all drove the same cars then the world would be a sad place and there would be no willy waving threads either.
that hurts really bad mate. thats a really spitefull thing to say!
Well we don't yet have the Leon Cupra Mk2. I heard March??
Either way, it's going to be a real blood and fire hot-hatch, no questions. The VXR would lose
Heh. Anyway, as someone said.. something about stroking blokes. It's true. Diversity and variety is nice, my dislike of these cars isn't a problem that any Vauxhall fanboy would lose sleep over.. similar to saying SEAT is just SEAT. SEAT is a sportier, more muscley (in most cases) VW. And VW are good.
Anyway, have a nice day all
Either way, it's going to be a real blood and fire hot-hatch, no questions. The VXR would lose
Heh. Anyway, as someone said.. something about stroking blokes. It's true. Diversity and variety is nice, my dislike of these cars isn't a problem that any Vauxhall fanboy would lose sleep over.. similar to saying SEAT is just SEAT. SEAT is a sportier, more muscley (in most cases) VW. And VW are good.
Anyway, have a nice day all
ladies!!handbags at noon,lol.thought about a vxr but chose the lcr cause of the reliability issues.knew a couple of people who had them and the exhaust box fell off them both,lol
Saying that nobody would slag of the LCR on the VXR forum, I doubt they'd be too happy If I posted about my LCR being faster than all theres and so forth. There aimed at the same people in order to buy but allow for some people to have different tastes.
DargY
Guest
At what point did I come on here saying the vxr is faster. Remember, I didnt start this thread. But indeed if you were to come over and say the LCR was fatser you probably wouldn't get much of a response apart from LOL
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