Electric bill (UK)- help with basics.

[Tell]

Hi Tell, thanks for putting that diagram up: it has familiarity only bc I am also on Octopus.

But, I have no idea whatsoever, about any number that's written on your diagram here. Why they are there, why they are so low. Hence I also have no idea about any of mine. I mean, I just pay DD. But I never know what or why I'm paying what I do. Hence I never look at this page, because it is 100% meaningless to me.

Then I try to read your reply above it, & it's like reading Mongolian. Barely any word makes any sense. So as to why you would -choose- to alter any of the numbers.. this is like a glaxy of understanding yet further away.

How the hell I'm possibly going to understand any of this, I really don't know.

Thanks though, Zoot

That's from the Android Octopus app:

Octopus Energy – Apps on Google Play

Your Octopus account at your fingertips

play.google.com

To set it up you have to fill in some details then it gives you all the details from the account, usage and you can pay yours bills or adjust your direct debit. That screen above shows at the top your float (what they have on credit) then you can dig in. For your friend if they really owed £500 it would show a negative or something. Mine never goes that way. In fact the home page says in credit, if they owed it would say something else.

The usage screen brackets by year, month, week, day and live. For the live to work you need a Smartmeter and the Home Mini box linked above.

Gas and electricity are shown. Don't have gas living off grid as they call it.

Devices. I dont use that but if you have an Octopus Home EV charger or one of their heat pumps that would be on there.

Bills. That's where you can get into the months bills. The bit that confuses you. But the home screen gives you the overview whether you owe any money.

Octopus. Their points scheme like supermarkets points. Like Tescos. Spin the wheel each month. They give away Greg's free coffee etc. That's on that. To encourage loyalty to get people to come back.

Settings. Setting up.

All quite easy. There will be an Apple version of that as well. Web based probably. Never go into it that way.

The app obviously is to support their energy business of which they have their associated software company that writes the systems. One of our British success stories for the post industrial revolution, service economy ... Octopus operate internationally and their energy software business.

I did work for a science policy research unit, one of my early jobs aimed at marrying technology, with science, social benefit and development studies . Use to get inventors arriving at the door step which the front desk had to deal with and Chileans ministers with their security, front and back doors. The unit was after a research grant. Advice for money. This was part of shipping our industrial revolution to Third World countries. Now happened and they are called the Global South. That does link to the above in the stages of technology development and business. A R4 wag said recently the name for British and societal development. Only thing is at the minute I've forgotten that name . Had a career in it anyway. Edit. Ah modernity. Now on the postmodernity era. Wiki is available. Does deserve a link

Postmodernity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Anyhow for the app you might have to feed the meter code in, although it may already have it. So just a question of setting it up with your online login. It you havent got that you will have to get one. With that app you wont have any questions about whether you owe them or not.

 

[Zoot]

Hi @Tell thanks, but I really don't want to set up any android app.

There is little point, if I don't understand the basics of an electricity bill.

I do not have a smartphone, nor use any 'app' on my iPad afaict. I've never known what an 'app' even is tbh- apart from a shorter abbreviation of the word application.

I get my bills online via a website. There's no point changing this, because this only adds a layer of complication.. when I'm trying to do the exact opposite. I do it DD, which has ONE advantage here, in thst I never actually NEED to look or do anything. I can bury my head in the sand & my bill is paid. But that doesn't mean I understand any part of it.

You are still coming from the angle, that I understand the implications of the numbers in your example. I don't. I can't make head or tail of any of them tbh.

I'm still striving for an answer to whether my old friend is obligated to write a cheque/ pay now, to the tune of £750 made payable to to EDF, having recently becoming aware of a figure of -£750 in 'debit' in his account. I'm just breaking it right down, to this sole question, for now, for this thread. I've given up trying to understand how & why a bill is done the way it is. So all I need, is to ask this one question, which relates to my old friend.

Is there no way anyone can answer this for me? For him?

Thanks. Zoot

 

[Tell]

Hi @Tell thanks, but I really don't want to set up any android app.

There is little point, if I don't understand the basics of an electricity bill.

I do not have a smartphone, nor use any 'app' on my iPad afaict. I've never known what an 'app' even is tbh- apart from a shorter abbreviation of the word application.

I get my bills online via a website. There's no point changing this, because this only adds a layer of complication.. when I'm trying to do the exact opposite. I do it DD, which has ONE advantage here, in thst I never actually NEED to look or do anything. I can bury my head in the sand & my bill is paid. But that doesn't mean I understand any part of it.

You are still coming from the angle, that I understand the implications of the numbers in your example. I don't. I can't make head or tail of any of them tbh.

I'm still striving for an answer to whether my old friend is obligated to write a cheque/ pay now, to the tune of £750 made payable to to EDF, having recently becoming aware of a figure of -£750 in 'debit' in his account. I'm just breaking it right down, to this sole question, for now, for this thread. I've given up trying to understand how & why a bill is done the way it is. So all I need, is to ask this one question, which relates to my old friend.

Is there no way anyone can answer this for me? For him?

Thanks. Zoot

Is your old friend in credit is the question to their energy company, if not it will be debit. The credit / balance is close to their heart so wont be happy if they havent got their buffer which they work on. The 2.5 × the monthly usage figure. Ask Citizens advice based on their bills if you can't work it out or the company wont use the word "credit". Which means they don't owe anything.

 

[Tell]

As for your question the web login works the same as the app. I'm in credit by the same amount

Settled yours.

& get a Smartmeter so there are no more estimates which you get without one and countless adjustments. You can still read it but no point given its in the system, GCHQ data stress tested for foreign actors .

 

[Zoot]

Is your old friend in credit is the question to their energy company, if not it will be debit. The credit / balance is close to their heart so wont be happy if they havent got their buffer which they work on. The 2.5 × the monthly usage figure. Ask Citizens advice based on their bills if you can't work it out or the company wont use the word "credit". Which means they don't owe anything.

I've said my old friend, is in debit, to the tune of -£750. He has an "account balance" of minus £750.

(I have no idea what on earth you mean by "buffer".. or "2.5 x monthly usage figure" & tbh I'm getting further baffled with the complexities of my own bill account balance situation, at every reply now).

So I'm putting trying to understand this to oneside now. I give up.

---

But I am left to address one question for my old friend. All I am asking on his behalf, is this.

If he is in debit to the tune of -£750.. Does he write a cheque, now for £750, to EDF.... or not?

Thanks. Zoot

 

[tracktoy]

We are not the right people to ask this question. Contact the power company support team and ask that simple question.

In my personal experience helping out other people you have two choices.

1/ Pay the balance,
2/ agree a payment plan (eg update you direct debit by £62.50 per month for one year as an example)

but at the end of the day you have to talk to electricity company to confirm this, I would also ask why you have been allowed to get into this situation as the direct debit should be automatically adjusted to make sure you dont get into this situation.

 

[Tell]

I've said my old friend, is in debit, to the tune of -£750. He has an "account balance" of minus £750.

(I have no idea what on earth you mean by "buffer".. or "2.5 x monthly usage figure" & tbh I'm getting further baffled with the complexities of my own bill account balance situation, at every reply now).

So I'm putting trying to understand this to oneside now. I give up.

---

But I am left to address one question for my old friend. All I am asking on his behalf, is this.

If he is in debit to the tune of -£750.. Does he write a cheque, now for £750, to EDF.... or not?

Thanks. Zoot

Well its sort of easy to see perhaps how he could get into this situation if the payments were not increased with how the price of energy has increased. But as above a question of whether there is a bail out or just write the check out. If it is really owed and they have the money just write the debt off.

I reckon my mother if still alive would have have had very high electricity bills being only electric heating. Gas and oil have similar prices around 7.5p per kph in equivalent terms whilst electricity is 20 to 25 p. Fortunately our heating is oil, but not inconsiderable payments of £3,000 a year or so on that and the roof for solar panels mitigates the electricity costs after the payback period... but more fun than an ISA and have half the price in capital terms.

There may be grants for solar panels for your friend if they own the roof and pass assorted means tests or just fork out. Pay back period may not be long enough for a 90 year old. My neighbour who was 90 had about 18 panels on their roof when they bought it. The farmer ditto with underground heat pumps as well. They designed a new build another 18 panels. The same company that did the Cupra dealership close by. . The farmer passed away but property was snapped up as being desirable. Money into the estate. I dont think the Cupra / Seat dealership is festooned with solar panels thou. Next time.

 

[Zoot]

. But as above a question of whether there is a bail out or just write the check out. If it is really owed and they have the money just write the debt off.

This is as close to an answer as Ive got. But even this I don't understand. Because you ask a question back "If it is really owed.."

((But this is what is what I'm asking, you)).

IE..

Is my friend's figure (of minus £750, -£750) he sees in his "balance"....... is it owed, or not?
Or the way I asked it was "should he be writing a cheque to EDF for this ammount, to pay them, now".

It must be a binary answer. Yes or no. Surely?

Anyway, I'll have to go to my horrible nationalistic unkind CB people it seems, because Ive exhausted all my efforts here. Not that I'm ungrateful, not in any way at all; it just seems what I'm asking, isn't being understood. So I keep asking the same thing until I'm partially mental. Aint good for my state of mind tbh. Causes me stress.

Thanks all the same though.

Zoot

 

[Tell]

Well Citizens Advice is a charity

Citizens Advice - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

By looking at the bill(s) they would instantly know what is going on. It has been known in the past that meter readings can get mistyped in obviously not with a smartmeter.

The other issue but may not effect your friend is credit rating. All legitimate companies feed in to credit scoring companies debts owed. Each individual has a score that any lender can check. Credit will be pulled if they are in debt. The mechanism to correct that if it happens correctly or incorrectly that an individual has the wrong score is a bit long winded since you have to register with a credit scoring agency to find out why a blot has been put on your score and who did it. Now that does cause long sleepless nights when that occurs if a companies lack of picking up direct debits has caused that. I've had that. Thames Water did it to me. Never took the money out of a direct debit mandate for a few months. Didn't say a peep. Fed you as poor debtors to a credit scoring agency. Go to buy a new pair of shoes with your charity credit card which the charity gets a percentage from. Wack sorry sir this card wont work.

There is a whole industry that runs off the back of credit scoring agencies and individuals who duck and dive the scores. A little money earner for these agencies. Where the score is free via your bank its a good idea to keep an eye on it to ensure some useless company that isn't taking the money for a utility like water of a standing direct debit doesn't drop you in it. A jobs worth.

So if your friend has call for financial credit and a score has been generated by not paying a bill intentionally or not then its an issue. Those people on this board that use credit to buy cars will know all about this but probably not about the swines in some companies that aren't doing their job, you don't notice that a payment system you have set up has failed and the world will come tumbling down on you when you next have a financial check done on you. Moving house etc and the estate agent does a check. Etc.

 

[SRGTD]

@Zoot - to ensure you get the most value from your meeting with Citizens Advice I’d recommend that you do some preparation in advance;​

1. Have copies of your friend’s monthly energy bills (I’d suggest from the last 12 months) so Citizens Advice can see how much electricity is actually being used, and whether the actual cost of that electricity exceeds the monthly direct debit payments. I suspect that is what’s been happening (i.e. monthly DD payments insufficient to cover cost of electricity used), bearing in mind the current minus £750 account balance that presumably has gradually built up over time and hasn’t suddenly just appeared (see my post #4 in this discussion topic). Copies of the bills will enable you to provide the specific information Citizens Advice ask for, or if you have a face to face meeting (that would be my preferred approach), Citizens Advice can pick out the relevant information from the bills so they can give you an informed response.
2. Citizens Advice will almost certainly want to know what your friends current monthly direct debit payment is and when the last time was that EDF increased your friend’s monthly payments to ensure they would be at a level that would be sufficient to cover the actual cost of electricity being used and clear any minus account balance that has been accrued. As advised in my post #4, all energy companies have a duty to regularly review customer direct debit payments - as mandated by Ofgem - to make sure payments cover the cost of energy used and to avoid a situation where a customer is suddenly hit with a large bill. If EDF hasn’t done this, then your friend might have a right of redress against EDF (Citizens Advice can hopefully advise on this). Below is a copy of the relevant point from my post #4 that pretty much said this;

‘If your friend pays by monthly direct debit, and if the £750 has built up gradually over a long period of time - say 2-3 years or more (worth checking previous bills - if available - to see if this is what’s happened), it tends to suggest either a) the monthly direct debit payments have been set too low, b) energy consumption is higher than it was initially expected to be or c) a combination of the two. It’s worth noting that Ofgem - the industry regulator - has mandated that energy suppliers must regularly review customer direct debit payments to ensure they are sufficient to cover the energy used and that the customer isn’t suddenly hit with a large ‘catch-up’ bill. If the energy supplier is in breach of Ofgem’s mandated requirements then it would be worth investigating further to see what rights and remedies, if any, might be available to your friend; maybe speak to Citizen’s Advice in the first instance?’​

Once Citizens Advice have all the information they need from your friend’s monthly bills, together with details of when - and how frequently - EDF has adjusted your friend’s monthly payments, they should be able to give you an informed response.

 

[Tell]

Very complete answer. Credit scoring will then correct itself once everything is sorted out even if they were not aware.

 

[Zoot]

We are not the right people to ask this question. Contact the power company support team and ask that simple question.

In my personal experience helping out other people you have two choices.

1/ Pay the balance,
2/ agree a payment plan (eg update you direct debit by £62.50 per month for one year as an example)

but at the end of the day you have to talk to electricity company to confirm this, I would also ask why you have been allowed to get into this situation as the direct debit should be automatically adjusted to make sure you dont get into this situation.

I said I tried asking an EDF Energy Representative, this simple Q, on behalf of my old friend.. but she didn't reply, rather instead just deluging me with numbers & payment plans he is currently on.

I asked again, politely saying I just please need this question answered 'does he have to pay this to you, now?'

She repeated the very same deluge-email.

Then I decided to try asking this Q, on somewhere I recognise alot of sensible folks (who have Seats instead of Audis or Golf gti's) & I'm still struggling to get an answer. Here on this forum.

So I will have to go to my horrible CB people, who'll be less likely to answer it, & very likely to get frustrated at my inability to understand the basics of a complcated electricity bill system. And very likely won't be willing to answer the Q.

Thanks.

 

[Zoot]

@Zoot - to ensure you get the most value from your meeting with Citizens Advice I’d recommend that you do some preparation in advance;​

1. Have copies of your friend’s monthly energy bills (I’d suggest from the last 12 months) so Citizens Advice can see how much electricity is actually being used, and whether the actual cost of that electricity exceeds the monthly direct debit payments. I suspect that is what’s been happening (i.e. monthly DD payments insufficient to cover cost of electricity used), bearing in mind the current minus £750 account balance that presumably has gradually built up over time and hasn’t suddenly just appeared (see my post #4 in this discussion topic). Copies of the bills will enable you to provide the specific information Citizens Advice ask for, or if you have a face to face meeting (that would be my preferred approach), Citizens Advice can pick out the relevant information from the bills so they can give you an informed response.
2. Citizens Advice will almost certainly want to know what your friends current monthly direct debit payment is and when the last time was that EDF increased your friend’s monthly payments to ensure they would be at a level that would be sufficient to cover the actual cost of electricity being used and clear any minus account balance that has been accrued. As advised in my post #4, all energy companies have a duty to regularly review customer direct debit payments - as mandated by Ofgem - to make sure payments cover the cost of energy used and to avoid a situation where a customer is suddenly hit with a large bill. If EDF hasn’t done this, then your friend might have a right of redress against EDF (Citizens Advice can hopefully advise on this). Below is a copy of the relevant point from my post #4 that pretty much said this;

‘If your friend pays by monthly direct debit, and if the £750 has built up gradually over a long period of time - say 2-3 years or more (worth checking previous bills - if available - to see if this is what’s happened), it tends to suggest either a) the monthly direct debit payments have been set too low, b) energy consumption is higher than it was initially expected to be or c) a combination of the two. It’s worth noting that Ofgem - the industry regulator - has mandated that energy suppliers must regularly review customer direct debit payments to ensure they are sufficient to cover the energy used and that the customer isn’t suddenly hit with a large ‘catch-up’ bill. If the energy supplier is in breach of Ofgem’s mandated requirements then it would be worth investigating further to see what rights and remedies, if any, might be available to your friend; maybe speak to Citizen’s Advice in the first instance?’​

Once Citizens Advice have all the information they need from your friend’s monthly bills, together with details of when - and how frequently - EDF has adjusted your friend’s monthly payments, they should be able to give you an informed response.

Hi SRGT.

Much appreciate your reply- & the gist makes sense. Unfortunately I cannot access my friend's account info: or rather I wouldn't talk about any details within it, to a 3rd party, without his consent. He just would flatly refuse. He's very private, & doesn't like me prompting them even to phone him (saving him 20 mins of automated menus to get thru, when he struggles with his hearing, just to speak to a person). Saying that, he has thanked me for my efforts, resulting in this Energy Rep phoning him.

Tbh I wouldn't intend to take his account details in & talk about them either. Because I'm still struggling with how a complicated electric bill works!! Even with your great help I still don't understand the very basics- it all still make no logical sense to me, any of it. So diving in & working out the best plan for him, from now on, isn't part of my plan. Never was. He is FAR FAR more adept at knowing the best payment plan for himself. At understanding how an electric bill work. He essentially understands it. I don't.

But he cannot get to speak to, ask on a forum, or go into anywhere as I can.. to get clarity on whether he is obliged to pay this -£750 figure, now, via a cheque.

I just want an answer to this 1 question. I'm putting all else aside now (it was WAAAY more complicated than I thought, & opened a can of worms by asking on my own behalf how it all works, & tbh so complicated I find it all- I don't think I will ever understand it).

I can though, ask one simple question, on behalf of my friend, despite my inability to comprehend electricity bill systems.

The question (should he be paying this sum, now??) has implications for me too, & for him in the future; because it's not just him now that sees a -£750 figure: he might well find another 'minus figure' in his balance in the future; & me too; I have also noticed a 'minus figure' in my own account I have no understanding the implications of, no idea why it is there, no idea like my friend if I'm being summoned for a fee, & if so, when.

Thanks. Zoot

 

[Tell]

Hi SRGT.

Much appreciate your reply- & the gist makes sense. Unfortunately I cannot access my friend's account info: or rather I wouldn't talk about any details within it, to a 3rd party, without his consent. He just would flatly refuse. He's very private, & doesn't like me prompting them even to phone him (saving him 20 mins of automated menus to get thru, when he struggles with his hearing, just to speak to a person). Saying that, he has thanked me for my efforts, resulting in this Energy Rep phoning him.

Tbh I wouldn't intend to take his account details in & talk about them either. Because I'm still struggling with how a complicated electric bill works!! Even with your great help I still don't understand the very basics- it all still make no logical sense to me, any of it. So diving in & working out the best plan for him, from now on, isn't part of my plan. Never was. He is FAR FAR more adept at knowing the best payment plan for himself. At understanding how an electric bill work. He essentially understands it. I don't.

But he cannot get to speak to, ask on a forum, or go into anywhere as I can.. to get clarity on whether he is obliged to pay this -£750 figure, now, via a cheque.

I just want an answer to this 1 question. I'm putting all else aside now (it was WAAAY more complicated than I thought, & opened a can of worms by asking on my own behalf how it all works, & tbh so complicated I find it all- I don't think I will ever understand it).

I can though, ask one simple question, on behalf of my friend, despite my inability to comprehend electricity bill systems.

The question (should he be paying this sum, now??) has implications for me too, & for him in the future; because it's not just him now that sees a -£750 figure: he might well find another 'minus figure' in his balance in the future; & me too; I have also noticed a 'minus figure' in my own account I have no understanding the implications of, no idea why it is there, no idea like my friend if I'm being summoned for a fee, & if so, when.

Thanks. Zoot

Well as I said on Octopus the home screen tells you whether you are in credit or debit. They like you to have a credit level of 2.5 x your monthly bill over the year. That gives them a buffer. If on direct debit they will drop you an email saying we have increased your DD if they think you aren't paying enough to keep that buffer or lower it.

Get a Smartmeter and you can sit back and not worry. This with monthly bills have a lot of plusses and minus but its the home screen with the float on it and the DD being taken each month that count. The web login gives you the same as the app so you can check your monthly costs. Once you move off estimates onto actually monthly readings that are automated you wont see those estimates and adjustments from estimates.

Smartmeters don't bite and they make it easy. You configure for the 30 minute readings which they like in anycase. Thats a check box on the web management page from memory and for smart tariffs if you take the plunge you need that. You can just continue with whatever tariff you are on. You don't need to adopt fancy ones although if you aren't using a lot of electricity between 4pm and 7pm you got Agile tariff. EV you use the ones aimed at EV charging, low at night, higher in the day. It's the Smartmeter that enables Octopus to support a range of tariffs other than the standard ones.