Intercooler performance

[RobDon]

Everyone knows about cheap ebay intercoolers Vs the expensive ones from the likes of Forge, Pro Alloy, etc., but I wanted to get some feedback on how they perform, also the debate on bar and plate Vs tube and fin which seems never-ending!

I got rid of my big race Forge FMIC which cost over £500 for a cheap ebay bar and plate intercooler which cost £90, similar in size at 590mm wide x 290mm tall x 76mm thick. I'm seeing intake temps only around 4-6 degrees C above the outside air temp, the other day the outside temp was showing 7.5 to 8 degrees C, the IAT sensor was showing inlet temps of 12-14 degrees C - which to me seems very good for a cheap intercooler - is it? I'm not running a phenolic spacer on my intake manifold either.

I made 317bhp on the cheap ebay cooler - would I make more on an expensive cooler?

 

[jambel]

my experiences with intercoolers are that a budget intercooler isn´t that bad.
I used several cores on vr6 turbo engines and there was no real differences in engine performance between a ebay one and a very good one like the cores from bell intercooler or garrett. the more important thing is to have very low restriction/pressure drop and a good airflow on the intercooler. one very good example is the 1.8t engine, especially in a golf, this stock intercoolers are that much restrictive that if you change them with a better flowing one you think someone has opend the hand brake after 3000 rpm.
I noticed on a vr6 turbo that it is not necessary to have giant intercoolers as big as a radiator if you do not have a good airflow onto the intercooler, I interchange on with one which was 1/3rd in height but 50% thicker and had identical intake temps but a more agressive throttle response

 

[RobDon]

After talking to Peter @ Forge (who was very honest), he said:

"I have to say that the temps that you are quoting are very good , I would think it will be difficult to better this."

So in reality a £90 intercooler performs just as well as one costing £500! I don't get much pressure drop at all, around 1 psi at 1.5 BAR of boost.

 

[jamiebennett81]

I think to be honest Rob, unless you have some extreme application i.e. Bills Ibiza monster, then an Ebay jobby will do fine

maybe the cost from Forge and PA is due to longevity of the kit rather than differences in performance from the ebay coolers - as in better grade material, so wont rust or will last better in the harsher winter years to come?

Tis the only thing I can think of, but is probably wrong, so who knows

if there is no real difference in performance and quality, then I dont know why Forge's and PA's prices are so high

dont get me wrong, their kits IMO are very good quality, but running your power on an ebay cooler does raise the question of why you would choose an expensive FMIC setup over a much cheaper one which does the job just as well (reading the quote from Forge as you have mentioned above)

 

[RobDon]

Lots of profit and a branded name? I've proved to myself that a £90 intercooler performs the same as a £690 big race FMIC from Forge ... I experienced no drop in performance switching from one to the other.

 

[gatecrasher3]

Lots of profit and a branded name? I've proved to myself that a £90 intercooler performs the same as a £690 big race FMIC from Forge ... I experienced no drop in performance switching from one to the other.

Do you have a link to the eBay item or any info on the make so I can take a look?

I have to say the price of the Forge units seem very high.

In comparison I had a £400 FMIC kit on my old Scoob and it did a sterling job.

 

[jamiebennett81]

Lots of profit and a branded name? I've proved to myself that a £90 intercooler performs the same as a £690 big race FMIC from Forge ... I experienced no drop in performance switching from one to the other.

good salesman then?

 

[RobDon]

The intercooler I am running is this one: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FRONT-MOUNT-I...arts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item3efa80f12b

Certainly seems to work well enough - driving I was seeing an outside temp of 6.5 degrees C and the inlet temp was 9 degrees! (shown on the Scangauge)

 

[D.K]

With your £90 intercooler did that include the hoses, joiners, clips and crash bar ?

TBH I was a bit hard on Forge about the price of there kit recently but if you break it down you can see where the money goes.
Modded crash bar .............................£250
Lower IC hoses, joiners and clips .......£170 (ish)
Intercooler .......................................£212.20 (ish)
Total ................................................£632.50 inc VAT (web price)
The above price's are my estimation's as I'v had a price recently for there crash bar.
And yes it is still expensive but you know the kit is going to fit without too much messing around trying to cut bit's to make them fit

 

[RobDon]

Ok so let's add it all up then:

Crash bar - £20 (ish)
silicone hoses, pipes and clips - £130 (ish) Full run from turbo to TB - unlike the Forge kit.
intercooler - £90

Total = £240

Still only £240 ... massive difference in cost.

(BTW - modify your existing crash bar and it's FREE - £220 total)

I know DIY is not for everyone and some people like straight bolt on solutions and pay a garage to fit it for them ........ that's their choice and their money. Just stating some facts.

My point is that you'd expect the hugely expensive big name intercooler to massively out-perform the cheapo ebay cooler but it simply doesn't, so what are you paying for - it's not performance.

 

[D.K]

I agree Rob it's is a lot to pay for a kit with a big name on it.

I'm hopeing to find out how good the Forge kit is soon as I won one on Ebay for a VERY good price.

OE crash bar from Seat (Sere motor's) £58 +P&P

 

[harty190486]

Well i have gone down the universal route

Intercooler core size 550x225x64 £69.99
hoses, pipes and miklor clamps £85
brackets £10 being generous
total £164.99

Forge kit £632.50 on there web site

Total saved £467.51

Quite a saving really the intercooler is roughley the same size as forges, Fitted one of these uni coolers to my mates s3 2 weeks ago bumper of to bumper on 5 hours and really impressed with the quality and overall result great cooling over standard logged befor and after very impressed i will go universal anyday unless trying to go over 400bhp, if a stone or branch goes through my cooler its only £70 to replace unlike forges

 

[DPJ]

Good points here from Rob and DK.

You'll find this with a lot of things in any market - that companies leading a sector with their product can charge a real premium price. What the customer gets is the solid reliability of the company's support and a product that does what it says on the tin.

It's not about massively outperforming cheaper products. Most people want to buy a reliable product, fit and forget. That's what you get with Forge.

I'm not suggesting Rob is wrong it what he says. But the majority of peple with money to buy only one intercooler would have nagging doubts that their cheapie intercooler wasn't doing the best job.......

 

[RobDon]

Yup, very true, but that's why I asked Peter at Forge about my intake temps using the ebay IC, to find out if it was doing a good job or if it was rubbish, he replied:

"I have to say that the temps that you are quoting are very good , I would think it will be difficult to better this."

I have to applaud his honesty.

 

[jonjay]

Good points by Rob, DK and DPJ.

To add my 2p...If a company like forge puts the development time in then they need tor recoup their costs. I can understand then charging a premium cost at the start however like with all products over time the cost should go down once they recouped the money.

Like DPJ said you find that with a lot of products nowadays. What you end up paying for is the support and warranty from the company's. On certain components you can get away with it and on some you cant.

 

[D.K]

Although I look like I'm waving the Forge flag I would have bought a uni kit if I had'nt got my Forge kit for such a silly price.
I dont want to make you sick but I saved £570 on the price of the Forge kit and all I need to do is mod the crash bar

 

[Wilko]

There is no doubt that you can put together a kit that will fit, an perform as well as the forge.
Forge are restricted by what they can fit in the space available, as 99% of people don't want to hack their cars.
They spend a lot of development time putting a simple to fit well designed kit together, they produce an instruction manual, stock and package the kits, awnser the phone when you ring, and here's the killer, they expect to make a proffit on what they do.

I'm sure when you all go to work you expect to get paid!

 

[RobDon]

Yes indeed, being in business is all about making money for themselves.

The Pro Alloy 'kit' is even worse value for money, you don't even get a crash bar, just the intercooler, mounting bolts and some silicone and pipes - £695 + VAT and delivery = £800!!!

The Forge big race FMIC kit is £690 inc.VAT. 10% SCN discount = £621, much, much better VFM than the PA kit.

Don't get me wrong - if I was offered the Forge big race kit for significantly less money I'd jump at it.

 

[ibizacupra]

After talking to Peter @ Forge (who was very honest), he said:

"I have to say that the temps that you are quoting are very good , I would think it will be difficult to better this."

So in reality a £90 intercooler performs just as well as one costing £500! I don't get much pressure drop at all, around 1 psi at 1.5 BAR of boost.

have you measured the pressure drop on pre-post intercooler?

 

[ibizacupra]

Don't get me wrong - if I was offered the Forge big race kit for significantly less money I'd jump at it.

why. you have just said it wont perform any better, as price overrides performance to you, and given an apparent neglegable difference, the price is the differentiator, hence using the chinese egay one.

unless brand is important..

which to many it is, along with sales support and service, which wilko eluded t.

pays ya money and takes ya choice as ever.

in your example, the performance being asked from it with your just over 300bhp setup is adequately intercooled.. every case and turbo install will have its own wants and needs.. at some point, more than likely on higher powered installs, will the actual fmic core efficiencies become more apparent, but for those installs, they are likely bigger budgeted perhaps.

the egay ones are excellent value and cant be ignored for those prepared to diy their own installs... HOWEVER, i have seen quite a few not so good installs from DIY, which results in blown off pipes, things rubbing thru etc etc... so there are downsides for the unwary/inexperienced. For them my advise it take it to someone who has done it before, and or buy a kit which has been developed for your car with ease of fitment and instructions in mind.