Intercooler performance

[RobDon]

Yeah, my boost controller is set to 1.5 BAR and I see 1.4 BAR on my boost gauge, so a 0.1 BAR drop through the IC and pipework, which is just 1.45 PSI. Controller take its signal just after the turbo outlet, gauge off the intake manifold.

I'd take one because if would be far more worth the money, I'd rather support UK companies than unknown ebay stuff but refuse to pay over-inflated prices for something that performs just the same. Why pay £700 when something for £250 does the same job?

I agree for those who are not into DIY or have little knowledge of working on cars - a Forge kit is a great investment and you won't be disappointed ... if you can afford it.

 

[ibizacupra]

I find you quite a contradiction Rob..

I'd rather support UK companies than unknown ebay stuff but refuse to pay over-inflated prices

You seem to import most things to save a few quid... from what I have seen you post about.

One day there will be no UK companies, as without orders they will cease to exist. UK companies have to operate in UK's taxed to hell regime, and where you think they may be just minting it, I would have to say they probably are not at all. UK is expensive, and not because of the UK companies, but the goverment and taxes..... which often get ducked under by personal importers from mis-reporting and undervaluing values of goods.

go figure

 

[RobDon]

I understand what you're saying Bill, you can thank our wonderful government for the UK paying such high taxes and VAT etc., and yes, like many, many other people I do import stuff, often saving alot of money not just a few quid. I'm not contradicting myself, I buy in the UK whenever I think the price and product is reasonable, ( I buy alot of Forge stuff like hoses, DV, actuator, etc.) but have no problem importing something to save a bundle of cash.

But have no doubt that UK companies DO make a healthy profit on products they make and sell.

 

[pj1985]

Forge kit is expensive but was developed by them for direct fit and as we all know Forge has probably the best aftersales service of any of the performance part retailers in the tuning world. There is value in that if you have a problem. Not all ebay coolers are great either. Seen one on a mk2 golf 1.8t that was pretty restrictive and had a cooler made that was the same size but worked much better dus to its construction. Pro Alloy kits are more expensive but come into there own when going BT as Froge is not upto the job as some people have found out. They are very well made aswell although the silicone piping can be abit flimsy. All depends on what you want and what you have to spend but with ebay it can be a big gamble as we know and with other kits you know exactly what your getting and what application it will be suited to.

 

[ibizacupra]

I understand what you're saying Bill, you can thank our wonderful government for the UK paying such high taxes and VAT etc., and yes, like many, many other people I do import stuff, often saving alot of money not just a few quid. I'm not contradicting myself, I buy in the UK whenever I think the price and product is reasonable, ( I buy alot of Forge stuff like hoses, DV, actuator, etc.) but have no problem importing something to save a bundle of cash.

But have no doubt that UK companies DO make a healthy profit on products they make and sell.

without seeing their P&L on item level I would'nt like to say myself

Interestingly, as a sort of aside, SFS have sent an email to folks which says its invested in a new silicon hose making process, which is manufactured in the UK whilst being competitive, vs competitors, who badge and stick their name on chinese manufactured hoses.

Good for SFS I say as a whole heartedly pro UK Manufacturing person.

 

[RobDon]

"when going BT as Froge is not upto the job as some people have found out."

What evidence shows that Forge intercoolers are not up to the job of bigger turbos? Bill is running a Forge intercooler on his 500+bhp Ibiza?

It is true that I've seen alot of race cars with Pro Alloy intercoolers and none with Forge.

 

[traumapat]

i had issues with the Forge LC becoming a bottle neck , but i think that was more the same side restrictive pipework more than the cooler. The PA single pass worked better.

But then forge designed it to be an easy fit so you can`t have it both ways.

Be nice to see forge drop its prices on intercoolers but not if it stopped them developing better kit for the future.

 

[RobDon]

Found interesting reading about intercoolers:

http://www.extremeintercoolers.com/tech.html

http://www.are.com.au/techtalk/intecoolersMR.htm

 

[pj1985]

"when going BT as Froge is not upto the job as some people have found out."

What evidence shows that Forge intercoolers are not up to the job of bigger turbos? Bill is running a Forge intercooler on his 500+bhp Ibiza?

It is true that I've seen alot of race cars with Pro Alloy intercoolers and none with Forge.

Common Rob Bills intercooler is not exactly an off the shelf forge kit is it? Forges kit for the mk3 ibiza was not up to the job of IHI and a few people had to change from them to get the power they were expecting. I think they even stated themselves that they were not designed with BT power in mind and may not be capable of cooling as efficiently at that kind of power.

You need to be very clear with what you state as Forge as you were saying the Forge kit, which is what most people will call Forge, and now you are saying Bills cooler is Forge even though its a custom cooler made to Bills spec as even though they will do them its not what you call your standard Forge kit (they dont even supply any other piping and its not direct fit at all).

 

[RobDon]

Bills is just one example I thought of, if we're talking about all Forge kits and even Forge state they're not up to going beyond say 300bhp, (even though Forge told me their LCR intercooler kits can handle 350bhp+?) then fair enough, my point has been made for me, alot of money for a limited kit.

So the bottom line is that Forge make great bolt-on kits for those on stock turbos/remapped that are well made but a bit expensive, Pro Alloy can handle more power but are more expensive still.

 

[ibizacupra]

"when going BT as Froge is not upto the job as some people have found out."

What evidence shows that Forge intercoolers are not up to the job of bigger turbos? Bill is running a Forge intercooler on his 500+bhp Ibiza?

It is true that I've seen alot of race cars with Pro Alloy intercoolers and none with Forge.

i dont run a forge fmic on mine
they have a core which is comparible, but mines not one of there's (yet)

 

[RobDon]

Sorry, my bad, thought it was.

 

[ibizacupra]

Sorry, my bad, thought it was.

not a problem.
mines AM one, which was made by AH Fabs guy originally... and is a cut down Iveco truck FMIC core in reality

 

[jamiebennett81]

not a problem.
mines AM one, which was made by AH Fabs guy originally... and is a cut down Iveco truck FMIC core in reality

iveco truck FMIC on an ibiza, that makes me chuckle

 

[INA]

I use Garrett cores.Proven and work and not because of the brand but because of the design BUT....Sorry for the offtopic.....

You seem to import most things to save a few quid...

Its the same wherever you go Bill! It is cheaper for me to buy from Forge in the UK than buy from Forge here!
Do you think I sell to Canadians? NO! Not worth my time!
Lets say a part is $150 USD and my cost on it is $100 USD
By the time I have to SUPPLY it to a customer here,he is looking @ $275 worth after taxes and such (PST,GST etc etc)
why would he buy it from me for 275 when he can buy it direct for 200? Not worth it to him.

One day there will be no UK companies, as without orders they will cease to exist. UK companies have to operate in UK's taxed to hell regime, and where you think they may be just minting it, I would have to say they probably are not at all. UK is expensive, and not because of the UK companies, but the goverment and taxes..... which often get ducked under by personal importers from mis-reporting and undervaluing values of goods.

So I guess UK major software companies (A product DEVELOPED IN THE UK BTW) that sell SOFTWARE for 500 and 600 GBP VAT EXCLUSIVE! are being taxed to hell too right?
How many years did Samco dominate the GLOBAL market? How about Forge Motorsport? I know because I use to pay Samco $300 USD for 5 dinky hoses.
Prior to APR, North America has no heavy hitters @ the turn of the century....

Reality is the UK market has opened globally and some of the boys just cant keep up.Dont blame it on taxes and the government blame it on the over zealousness and short sightedness of some of the UK companies to not plan for the inevitable.
Hell...there are some places in the UK you can manufacture products for a HELL of alot of cheaper than ANYWHERE here. The UK is not the ONLY place in the world that is expensive.....there are many other countries that are as equally expensive and they are holding up just fine.

...Food for thought.

 

[RobDon]

Well said, sums it up for me.

Speaking of intercoolers, I still wonder why Forge use tube and fin intercoolers, especially when you read things like this:

"Extruded Tube & Fin: Extruded Tube and fin design uses a oval tube with an extruded fin that is molded into the tube when it is built. The fin packing is not very dense which lowers the efficiency of the core but allows it to flow more air through each tube because there is less turbulence caused by the internal fins. A lot of the time the air charge will nto contact any of the fins as it travels through the core. There are several types of extruded tube and fin designs, but it is usually the least desirable since it has the lowest efficiency therefore the lowest temperature drop across the core. This can commonly lead to heat soak. The upside to this type of core is that due to the oval nose design it allows more ambient airflow through the core compared to the bar and plate and because the fin packing is not as dense, it flows well through the core (internally). The downside is that the core design is very inefficient."

ETS appear to have made very high quality intercoolers with well thought out design - and sell them for $400, around £240!

Precision also make awesome intercoolers (Garrett cores, cast end tanks) which sell for massively cheaper too, around $400 too.

http://www.precisionturbo.net/Wc21126d5f695d.htm

 

[pj1985]

Iirc Forge said in another thread that when they design their intercoolers they try both tube and fin and bar and plate and work out whih performs best for the application. Im sure cost also coms into it though.

 

[ibizacupra]

I use Garrett cores.Proven and work and not because of the brand but because of the design BUT....Sorry for the offtopic.....


Its the same wherever you go Bill! It is cheaper for me to buy from Forge in the UK than buy from Forge here!
Do you think I sell to Canadians? NO! Not worth my time!
Lets say a part is $150 USD and my cost on it is $100 USD
By the time I have to SUPPLY it to a customer here,he is looking @ $275 worth after taxes and such (PST,GST etc etc)
why would he buy it from me for 275 when he can buy it direct for 200? Not worth it to him.


So I guess UK major software companies (A product DEVELOPED IN THE UK BTW) that sell SOFTWARE for 500 and 600 GBP VAT EXCLUSIVE! are being taxed to hell too right?
How many years did Samco dominate the GLOBAL market? How about Forge Motorsport? I know because I use to pay Samco $300 USD for 5 dinky hoses.
Prior to APR, North America has no heavy hitters @ the turn of the century....

Reality is the UK market has opened globally and some of the boys just cant keep up.Dont blame it on taxes and the government blame it on the over zealousness and short sightedness of some of the UK companies to not plan for the inevitable.
Hell...there are some places in the UK you can manufacture products for a HELL of alot of cheaper than ANYWHERE here. The UK is not the ONLY place in the world that is expensive.....there are many other countries that are as equally expensive and they are holding up just fine.

...Food for thought.

You miss the point completely