Speed Limiters Next Year

[Mr Pig]

This was touched on I another thread but I felt it deserved one of its own.

From next year, all new cars must be fitted with speed limiters. This was a EU ruling but, despite Brexit, the UK government has chosen to comply anyway. Yeah, so what the feck was the point of Brexit exactly?

Anyway, being the sneaky baskets they are, the limiters will be phased in gradually so people will accept them. At first, they will only ping when you go over the speed limit and you will be able to switch the system off. After a few years, you will not be able to switch it off and I will actually stop you going over the speed limit.

This is going to make driving a miserable experience for many people. What are your thoughts on it? Why is there no campaign to stop it from happening?

So many things you can say about this. Few of them good. Surveys show that the majority do not want this but the government is doing it anyway. Not democracy, dictatorship.

 

[Crossthreaded]

A very interesting subject this. My natural inclination is to reject more regulation, especially as I quite enjoy a "spirited drive" on some of our less crowded Scottish roads. However the need for something like this gets forcibly driven home almost every time we undertake one of our "pilgrimages" to friends and family down in southern England and the west country. (typically, before Covid, 3 or 4 times a year.) The disregard for national speed limits is quite shocking and, especially but not exclusively, highly dangerous around the midlands where, I have to say, I find the general standard of driving to be pretty poor.

Also, there are so many mandatory speed limits, enforced by cameras etc, that it's very easy to innocently fall foul of them and maybe receive a fine and points on your licence as a result. I like my cruise control in these situations as, once I've engaged it, I know I'm not going to exceed the set limit - have to watch out for steep inclines, but there's not many of those on motorways. My cruise seems to work in all gears and at all speeds so I use it a lot on city streets too. I find it especially useful in many of Edinburgh's 20 mph zones - the Royal Park being one in particular where it's very easy to let your speed creep up - especially when even some of the bicycles are overtaking, and, dangerously in my opinion, undertaking you - Are bicycles exempt from mandatory speed limits? Of course, in the past with 30 being the norm, there were few who could exceed this but now, at 20 mph, there are a lot of cyclists who can and do go faster than this on even the slightest of downhill slopes.

 

[SRGTD]

An interesting YouTube video from Rory Reid (Top Gear presenter) on speed limiters. He makes some very good / valid points IMO;

Aside from issue of limiting speed, what will the speed limiter data that’ll (presumably) be recorded by the car will be used for and who it will be shared with? - Insurance companies for claim repudiation?, car manufacturers (could they use this data for potential warranty claim denial perhaps?), DVLA; automatic speeding fines and licence points? Would car owners be required to sign up to agreeing to the speed limiter data being shared with ‘relevant’ third party organisations if / when they buy a car fitted with a speed limiter?

I think I might be keeping my current car without speed limiter for some time………..

 

[Mr Pig]

I think I might be keeping my current car without speed limiter for some time………..

At the moment I have no intention of buying a limited car. Eventually, it's going to become a problem though. Anything not limited will be really old.

What I do not understand is why there is no outrage about this. No protests, no big campaigns. I think this is a step too far, a real infringement o our liberties, and it's time people stood up and said...NO!

 

[DigitalSushi]

This was touched on I another thread but I felt it deserved one of its own.

From next year, all new cars must be fitted with speed limiters. This was a EU ruling but, despite Brexit, the UK government has chosen to comply anyway. Yeah, so what the feck was the point of Brexit exactly?

The eternal question.... I've yet to see it and sadly the 30 highly paid data analysts made redundant at our place directly because of it certainly have not either. But jesus that's a can of worms to open up..

Yeh i heard about this somewhere and i don't like the idea of that as, I would be very surprised if the car industry accepted it, though not sure what they can do as it would batter new car sales. The problem is if this does happen we will be forced to comply as if not we cannot sell uk produced vehicles to the EU

I certainly would not be buying a new car with one on it, would be going all wheeler dealer and buying second hand all the time. But in all honesty unless this car blows up I will probably be keeping it for a while, can be all civilised in comfort mode when the missus and the dogs are in it, can tear my face off when they are not. Not sure what else I need. I also think this may be a bit of a future classic certainly a lot less of these on the roads than the other manufacturers versions

 

[Damo H]

At the moment I have no intention of buying a limited car. Eventually, it's going to become a problem though. Anything not limited will be really old.

What I do not understand is why there is no outrage about this. No protests, no big campaigns. I think this is a step too far, a real infringement o our liberties, and it's time people stood up and said...NO!

Not saying I agree with it.

But the reason there is likely no massive outrage or protests on the streets, is how do you argue rationally against their introduction for road cars?

They'll ask the question "Why do you want a road car that can go faster than the speed limit?"

The only argument (in my eyes) that works is the overtaking one. If someone is doing 50 in a 60 and I want to overtake, the faster I do it, the less time I'm on the wrong side of the road, the safer it is in my eyes.


I don't know enough about it, but what will the limit be? The country's highest speed limit? If so what happens when you go abroad? Will it use the GPS and adjust it?

If they're setting the speed limit to say a blanket 100mph for UK cars then I'd personally have no issue with that what so ever.

As for people who want to do track days, then I can see the high performance car makers will do what the Japanese Nissan GTR's do. They'll have a limiter that goes off of GPS, if you go to a track the limiter turns off.


Sadly this issue is a lot like the Americans and guns. In the same way they don't need a machine gun that can fire 100 bullets a second, Cars like the guy in the RS6 don't need to be able to do 200+ mph in the UK.


Not saying I agree with it, but would be interested to see a rationalised argument against them beyond 'I like to go for a spirited drive' or 'driving will be miserable if I can't go faster than 70mph on a UK road'.

 

[Crossthreaded]

As Digital Sushi so poignantly says "what is the point"? The reality of Brexit is, and I'm not surprised by this, turning out to be very very different to what some people hoped it would be. I've spent my working life in both big and small organizations and my perception is that it's ALWAYS better to chip away from within until you get some sort of setup you can live with - bearing in mind that it's always going to be a compromise because that many people are never going to agree totally on anything. Throwing the baby, your granny and the bath itself out with the bathwater just makes bathing the next child virtually impossible!

Regarding the speed limiters. My old, non digital, brain had never even considered that a speed limiter might do anything more than, well, limit speed. If it's going to be used to spy on me then count me definitely out! One of my boys, because his business is not doing too well due to all the restrictions, has been part time driving a supermarket delivery van. The van records stuff like position, speed and violence of driving style. So if he has to brake sharply or accelerate quickly, and driving around in heavy city traffic it's nigh on impossible not to at some point - especially braking - then when he returns and the record is analysed he gets called up to the office on a "disciplinary". Many of the drivers seem to be being reprimanded over this to such an extent that it's causing them anxiety and depression. Give him his due, my boy has now told them he won't be attending any more of these meetings! He'll probably get the sack for it I suppose but his business is starting to pick up a little so I don't think he cares.

 

['Little' John]

The major problem I have with this is the safety aspect. This technology is not fail safe yet - not by a long way. I have the speed limit exceeded display set to bang on the speed limit as I find it really helpful since the message flashing up in the dashboard display catches my peripheral vision. What is scary is just how often this goes wrong. There's a number of places on the A1/M1 where it insists the speed limit is only 40mph. If the speed is automatically limited this is going to cause carnage.

 

[Mr Pig]

They'll ask the question "Why do you want a road car that can go faster than the speed limit?"

It's a simple question with a complex answer. Just as limiters are a cheap and easy answer to a complex problem.

Good and safe drivers will exceed the speed limit often and do so safely. In many cities there might not be anywhere that you can go faster than thirty safely but much of the country is not like that. They cannot change speed limits every few hundred yards so in many towns there can be roads were you can do five mph over the limit no problem.

And no one drives dead on thirty. Even if you intend to, you'll fluctuate above and below the limit, again without it being a problem. In a limited car you would be getting a ping every time you hit thirty.

And there are times you really want to go faster for a short while. When you overtake you want to get past and pull back over as quickly as possible. A limiter means you can't. Look at the way limited lorries pass each other. You get this interminable elephant race because one truck can do 2mph more than the other. I've driven a limited minibus and trying to pass is terrible and can be scary. Can you imagine if every car on the road is like that!?

They say that you will be able to exceed the limit for a short time then the power will be cut. How scary is that? How can you commit to an overtake when you know you might lose power when you still need it?

 

[Damo H]

Good and safe drivers will exceed the speed limit often and do so safely. In many cities there might not be anywhere that you can go faster than thirty safely but much of the country is not like that. They cannot change speed limits every few hundred yards so in many towns there can be roads were you can do five mph over the limit no problem.

There are people who will say if you are breaking the speed limit you are not a safe driver. and that breaking the speed limit is breaking the law. Which admittedly is very black and white, There is plenty of evidence to show that speed kills, no evidence to say it prevents deaths except maybe when you look at emergency responders.

And there are times you really want to go faster for a short while. When you overtake you want to get past and pull back over as quickly as possible. A limiter means you can't. Look at the way limited lorries pass each other. You get this interminable elephant race because one truck can do 2mph more than the other. I've driven a limited minibus and trying to pass is terrible and can be scary. Can you imagine if every car on the road is like that!?

Don't disagree with you here, I've always said to the wife I don't ever want a slow car due to the overtaking. But there are plenty of quick cars. Most Leon's are quick enough, doesn't have to be a 300+ Cupra.

They say that you will be able to exceed the limit for a short time then the power will be cut. How scary is that? How can you commit to an overtake when you know you might lose power when you still need it?

I've not seen anything like that, all I've seen so far is that it will be visual, audible or haptic based feedback, and certainly nothing to suggest it would cut the power quickly enough so that you be put in a dangerous position mid overtake.



Like I said I don't welcome these things,. But sadly like with most things, the rules have to apply to the lowest denominators of society, and sadly even with these things being introduced those people who result in these things being introduced get around it one way or another anyway.

Remember there are labels to say don't use a hairdryer in a bath.

 

[Mr Pig]

I've not seen anything like that, all I've seen so far is that it will be visual, audible or haptic based feedback, and certainly nothing to suggest it would cut the power quickly enough so that you be put in a dangerous position mid overtake.

My understanding is that when the limiters are first introduced they will not stop you from exceeding the limit but will ping you. After a while it will change to the next phase and you will be allowed to go slightly over the limit for a few seconds then the power will be cut.

I don't know why it is hard to imagine they would do this. There are limited vehicles on the road right now, have been for years, and they hit a brick wall at their set limits. If you can happily exceed the limit, what would be the point of limiters?

 

[BigJase88]

Won’t happen

Says 112mph which is the same as Japan has had for decades

and i’m happy with a 112mph limit. I won’t be going anywhere near 112

 

[Damo H]

My understanding is that when the limiters are first introduced they will not stop you from exceeding the limit but will ping you. After a while it will change to the next phase and you will be allowed to go slightly over the limit for a few seconds then the power will be cut.

I don't know why it is hard to imagine they would do this. There are limited vehicles on the road right now, have been for years, and they hit a brick wall at their set limits. If you can happily exceed the limit, what would be the point of limiters?

Whether its hard to imagine or not, there are more rationale arguments for them to be introduced than not, whether its 112mph like @BigJase88 has suggested or the country specific limits as you suggest.

When the only real arguments against are someone having fun, enjoyment or convenience vs someone else's safety its hard for any argument to gain any real traction.

So the original point of why isn't there massive uproar or protesting in the streets is because there isn't a strong enough argument against it.

As for democracy vs dictatorship, there are obviously people lobbying to introduce these things. So who is lobbying against it? If no one is doing anything to help stop it then it isn't going to happen. That IS democracy. So survey done on a magazine's website isn't worth ****


Edit - I'm in the camp where I don't want it, or personally feel its needed. There are other things that could be done. But sadly the idiots out there would always spoil it for those that aren't idiots, so I understand why it'll happen in one form or another.

As they say, 'for the greater good' lol

 

[Mr Pig]

When the only real arguments against are someone having fun, enjoyment or convenience vs someone else's safety its hard for any argument to gain any real traction.

It's not as simple as fun vs safety. That is the line they would want you to swallow but this is the tactic used by all dictatorships. Accept things you personally don't want for the good of the greater whole. Socialism/Communism. And it starts off small and ends up big and bad.

Road deaths have fallen steadily for years and are at record lows, this is despite there being far more cars on the road. I also find the links to absolute speed and road deaths tenuous. Motorways have the highest traffic speeds yet the lowest deaths. Speed is a problem when it's inappropriate. The limit on most country roads is 60 but going round a blind bend at 50 can be too fast. Doing thirty in a busy high street can be too fast. limiters won't prevent these kinds of issues as the driver is not technically breaking the limit and I doubt they will reduce deaths significantly at all.

The reason speed is targeted by bearcats is because it's easy and cheap to do. Introducing limiters costs them nothing, they just tell the manufacturers to do it and they will bear the cost of the equipment and probably the lost sales. Speed is easy to measure so convictions are easy to obtain. Driving carelessly, tailgating, poor observation, these are the things that cause most crashes but it's harder, and therefore more costly, to catch and prosecute offenders so they don't do it.

How many people do you know with points for speeding? And I bet many of those people are not reckless drivers. And how many with points for other types of driving offence? No, neither do it.

And it is dictatorship. This idea came from unelected bearcats in Brussels and is opposed by the majority of people in the UK.

 

[Damo H]

This idea came from unelected bearcats in Brussels and is opposed by the majority of people in the UK.

Unelected? You sure about that?

Despite all the Brexit stuff that was shared, these people were elected.

List of members of the European Parliament for the United Kingdom (2019–2020) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Don't blame the system, blame the people that actually got elected. Because sadly those who were elected did sweet FA about it. You may spot a few familiar names.

However, remember the UK has been at the forefront of car safety, so chances are those that did something, probably asked for it.

If you are that passionate about it, then maybe contact your local MP, as with Brexit surely we shouldn't have to follow the EU rules. But as per the Rory Reid video above, its something that they won't want to back out of, as its easier in a number of ways to keep it. So in that case it is our elected officials.

 

[martin j.]

Will these systems identify race circuits, or are track days doomed too?

 

[Damo H]

Will these systems identify race circuits, or are track days doomed too?

I doubt anyone truly knows right now.

However, that's what the Nissan GTR does in Japan:

Nissan GT-R automatically unlocks speed limiter when you get to a circuit

The new Nissan GT-R will be limited to 180km/h in the land of the rising sun. The rather low-speed limit has been the source of some derision of the GT-R, although it is expected that in North-America and Europe the limit will be set at a more respectable 250km/h. It’s not all bad news for the...

www.motorauthority.com

However, in Europe they just set the limit to 155mph.

 

[MoToJoJo]

Ok, let’s clear up a few things. The limiters will set to the speed limit you are driving in, be that 30 or 70. How? GPS and front facing cameras. It’s how self driving cars like Teslas are meant to function. There will be various interventions to let you know you’re driving over the limit but, at least initially, they will self cancel when it’s clear you have no intention of slowing down. Guess that makes life more fun when committed to an overtake.

The data logging being used by police? Yup, if they know it has information which they believe can aid in investigating a crime they can seize it and that means your whole car, just like your phone, just like any dash cam.

Can it be defeated? Well Nissan said the GTR came with uncrackable speed limiting…. which was cracked within a year of release.

Is it a good idea? Personally I think majority people don’t understand driving enough to comment whilst enthusiasts will just find their own way round it either by sticking with older vehicles, getting the car recoded or jumping on a motorbike (which is more fun and makes you a better driver anyway).

Oh, and fun little aside… yes, there’s a 180kph speed limiter in Japan, I can tell you from experience most people speed but it’s only the hardcore enthusiasts going past 180kph on the C1 loop which is a 50kph limit.

Another aside just to note something, there is no 155mph limit in Europe, that’s a gentleman’s agreement between certain manufacturers that they pretty much ignore now because Porsche

 

[Mr Pig]

In the question of disabling the limiter. Very few people would consider that and it would be foolish to as that would almost certainly void your insurance.

I've been in Germany and have seen lots of cars going significantly faster that 155mph. It'strange because once you're acclimatized to the higher cruising speeds it doesn't even seem that fast.

 

[Damo H]

Ok, let’s clear up a few things. The limiters will set to the speed limit you are driving in, be that 30 or 70. How? GPS and front facing cameras. It’s how self driving cars like Teslas are meant to function. There will be various interventions to let you know you’re driving over the limit but, at least initially, they will self cancel when it’s clear you have no intention of slowing down. Guess that makes life more fun when committed to an overtake.

The data logging being used by police? Yup, if they know it has information which they believe can aid in investigating a crime they can seize it and that means your whole car, just like your phone, just like any dash cam.

Can it be defeated? Well Nissan said the GTR came with uncrackable speed limiting…. which was cracked within a year of release.

Is it a good idea? Personally I think majority people don’t understand driving enough to comment whilst enthusiasts will just find their own way round it either by sticking with older vehicles, getting the car recoded or jumping on a motorbike (which is more fun and makes you a better driver anyway).

Oh, and fun little aside… yes, there’s a 180kph speed limiter in Japan, I can tell you from experience most people speed but it’s only the hardcore enthusiasts going past 180kph on the C1 loop which is a 50kph limit.

Another aside just to note something, there is no 155mph limit in Europe, that’s a gentleman’s agreement between certain manufacturers that they pretty much ignore now because Porsche

Yeah, the 155mph limit was like the 'gentleman's' agreement in Japan of not creating cars with more than 276hp (combined with the speed limiter):

Why Are Japanese Cars Limited To 276hp? - Garage Dreams

When I was a kid, my favourite game on Playstation 1 was Gran Turismo. Watch this video on YouTube One thing that always used to confuse me, however, was the fact that so many cars in that game all showed a power figure of 276hp: But why are Japanese cars limited to 276hp/280ps (or near ... Read...

garagedreams.net

But it got a bit silly when car manufacturers would say officially they were 276hp, were in reality they were higher.