Timing pull and injector duty cycle

8bit

Active Member
Feb 11, 2010
3,401
3
Aberdeen
yes I mean check fuel pressure under load..
it should follow boost... so 3bar with no vac, usually 2.7bar on idle vac, and when driving 1.5bar boost should equate to 4.5bar fuel pressure.. if not, and its significantly less you will see block 001 trying to adapt up to compensate.

Worth logging 001 and 031 and 118 sometime to see how the fuel adj is coping..

if its going additive by more than say 5% its working to add more fuel than expected... 25% is its limit before it throws the towel in

Cool, thanks. Can fuel pressure be logged with vagcom?

I'll see if I can get those other blocks logged soon.
 

ibizacupra

Jack-RIP my little Friend
Jul 25, 2001
31,333
19
glos.uk
no you cant log fuel pressure in vagcom.. there is no fuel pressure sensor on 1.8t

logs will indirectly see whats occuring..

need physical gauge to check
 

8bit

Active Member
Feb 11, 2010
3,401
3
Aberdeen
Cool, do you know if the LCR has a test port like some other cars do? If so, any idea what type of fitting it needs?
 

8bit

Active Member
Feb 11, 2010
3,401
3
Aberdeen
OK, finally managed to get some logs done on Saturday. I've recently change the FPR for another 3-bar one and changed the fuel filter. IDCs still peaking about 99% though. Blocks 001, 031 and 118 as you suggested Bill, I also logged 002, 020 and 115. I've added calculated AFR based on the actual lambda reading on the first log and I've added a calculated injector duty cycle column to the second one, using (on-time x RPM) / 1200 as the formula (that's right isn't it?)

Code:
Saturday	16	February	2013	12:31:53:62534	VCDS Version: Release 11.11.5	Data version: 20121222										
1ML 906 032 A		1.8l R4/5VT         0001														
																
	Group A:	'001				Group B:	'031					Group C:	'118			
		Engine Speed	Coolant	Lambda Control	Basic Setting		Lambda Control	Lambda Control		Bin. Bits	Bin. Bits		Engine Speed	Intake Air	Boost Pressure	Boost Pressure
	TIME	(G28)	Temperature (G62)	Bank 1	Requirements	TIME	Bank 1 (actual)	Bank 1 (specified)	AFR			TIME	(G28)	Temperature (G42)	Control (N75)	(actual)
Marker	STAMP	 /min	°C	 %		STAMP						STAMP	 /min	°C	 %	 mbar
	0.01	1840	87	-1.6	11101011	0.31	1.008	1	14.8176	        	        	0.61	1840	24	0	1010
	0.92	1800	87	-1.6	11111111	1.21	1.008	1	14.8176	        	        	1.52	1800	24	0	1010
	1.81	1800	88	0	11100111	2.12	0.883	0.953	12.9801	        	        	2.42	1800	24	100	1000
	2.73	1800	87	0	11100011	3.03	0.953	0.938	14.0091	        	        	3.33	1920	21	100	1210
	3.63	1960	88	0	11101011	3.93	0.922	0.93	13.5534	        	        	4.22	2080	18	100	1450
	4.54	2160	88	0	11101001	4.84	0.93	0.922	13.671	        	        	5.14	2320	17	93.3	1720
	5.44	2400	88	1.6	11101001	5.74	0.883	0.875	12.9801	        	        	6.04	2600	15	81.2	2130
	6.35	2720	88	8.6	11101001	6.65	0.828	0.821	12.1716	        	        	6.95	2960	15	77.3	2420
	7.25	3080	88	4.7	11101001	7.55	0.805	0.805	11.8335	        	        	7.86	3320	15	77.3	2410
	8.16	3440	88	-0.8	11100001	8.46	0.797	0.797	11.7159	        	        	8.76	3720	15	77.6	2410
	9.06	3840	88	0	11100001	9.36	0.805	0.797	11.8335	        	        	9.67	4080	15	77.3	2420
	9.97	4160	88	0	11100001	10.27	0.805	0.805	11.8335	        	        	10.57	4400	16	78	2380
	10.87	4520	88	0.8	11101001	11.17	0.782	0.805	11.4954	        	        	11.48	4720	17	77.6	2330
	11.78	4840	88	0.8	11101001	12.08	0.797	0.805	11.7159	        	        	12.38	5040	18	77.3	2280
	12.68	5120	89	0	11101001	12.98	0.805	0.805	11.8335	        	        	13.29	5320	19	78	2260
	13.59	5400	89	-0.8	11101001	13.89	0.797	0.805	11.7159	        	        	14.19	5600	21	78.4	2270
	14.49	5680	89	-0.8	11101001	14.81	0.797	0.813	11.7159	        	        	15.1	5840	21	79.2	2130
	15.4	5880	88	-0.8	11101001	15.7	0.805	0.813	11.8335	        	        	16	6080	23	78.8	2270
	16.32	6120	88	-2.3	11101001	16.62	0.805	0.813	11.8335	        	        	16.91	6160	24	0	2120
	17.21	6120	87	2.3	11110001	17.51	0.766	0.922	11.2602	        	        	17.81	5920	21	0	1140
	18.11	5760	87	0	11110001	18.42	1.991	1.047	29.2677	        	        	18.72	5520	21	0	1070
	19.02	5360	87	0	11110001	19.32	1.991	1.047	29.2677	        	        	19.62	5160	22	0	1050
	19.92	5080	87	0	11110001	20.23	1.991	1.047	29.2677	        	        	20.53	4880	23	0	1040
	20.83	4800	87	0	11110001	21.13	1.991	1.047	29.2677	        	        	21.43	4640	23	0	1030
	21.74	4520	87	0	11110001	22.04	1.991	1.047	29.2677	        	        	22.34	4360	23	0	1040

Code:
Saturday	16	February	2013	12:37:16:62534		VCDS Version: Release 11.11.5	Data version: 20121222									
1ML 906 032 A		1.8l R4/5VT         0001														
																
	Group A:	'002					Group B:	'020				Group C:	'115			
		Engine Speed	Engine Load	Injection Timing	Duty Cycle	Mass Air Flow		Timing Retardation	Timing Retardation	Timing Retardation	Timing Retardation		Engine Speed	Engine Load	Boost Pressure	Boost Pressure
	TIME	(G28)				Sensor (G70)	TIME	Cylinder 1	Cylinder 2	Cylinder 3	Cylinder 4	TIME	(G28)		(specified)	(actual)
Marker	STAMP	 /min	 %	 ms		 g/s	STAMP	°KW	°KW	°KW	°KW	STAMP	 /min	 %	 mbar	 mbar
	0.29	1760	20.3	2.04	2.99	8.81	0.6	0	0	0	0	0.01	1760	17.3	990	1040
	1.21	1840	86.5	8.84	13.55	35.5	1.51	0	0	0	0	0.9	1800	79.7	1710	1060
	2.11	2000	103.8	10.54	17.57	44.22	2.41	0	0	0	0	1.81	1920	97	1730	1300
	3.01	2200	127.8	12.92	23.69	58.94	3.32	0	0	0	0	2.72	2120	120.3	1840	1540
	3.92	2480	149.6	16.32	33.73	78.75	4.22	0	1.5	0	0	3.62	2360	142.1	1990	1860
	4.83	2800	177.4	21.76	50.77	93.08	5.13	0	1.5	1.5	0	4.53	2680	169.2	2170	2310
	5.73	3160	191	22.78	59.99	125.72	6.03	0	0.8	1.5	0	5.43	3080	183.5	2230	2390
	6.64	3520	191.7	22.78	66.82	138.78	6.94	0	0.8	1.5	0	6.34	3400	191.7	2260	2400
	7.54	3880	191.7	22.44	72.56	146.69	7.85	0	0.8	0.8	0	7.24	3760	191.7	2270	2400
	8.45	4240	191.7	22.44	79.29	158.64	8.75	1.5	0	0.8	0	8.15	4120	191.7	2260	2360
	9.35	4560	190.2	21.42	81.40	162.11	9.66	1.5	0	0	0	9.05	4440	190.2	2240	2320
	10.26	4880	184.2	20.4	82.96	169.44	10.56	0.8	1.5	0	0	9.96	4760	188	2220	2270
	11.17	5120	182	20.06	85.59	177.78	11.47	0.8	1.5	0	0	10.86	5040	181.2	2220	2240
	12.07	5400	181.2	20.06	90.27	188.78	12.38	0	0.8	0.8	0	11.77	5320	184.2	2230	2250
	12.97	5640	178.2	19.72	92.68	197.47	13.28	0	0.8	0.8	0	12.67	5560	181.2	2230	2230
	13.88	5880	175.2	19.38	94.96	198.11	14.18	0	0	1.5	0	13.58	5800	177.4	2200	2250
	14.79	6080	178.2	19.72	99.91	199.31	15.1	0	0	0.8	0	14.48	6000	174.4	2190	2210
	15.69	6280	163.9	18.02	94.30	203.31	16	0	0	0.8	0	15.39	6200	173.7	2190	2190
	16.61	6440	170.7	18.36	98.53	202.64	16.91	0	0.8	0.8	0.8	16.29	6400	174.4	2200	2120
	17.5	6600	171.4	23.8	130.90	207.08	17.81	2.3	3	2.3	0.8	17.21	6560	162.4	2200	2220
	18.41	6480	14.3	1.7	9.18	12.5	18.71	0	0	0	0	18.11	6520	13.5	990	1320
	19.31	6360	12	0	0.00	14.67	19.61	0	0	0	0	19.01	6360	12.8	990	1100
	20.23	6200	12	0	0.00	14.81	20.52	0	0	0	0	19.92	6240	12	990	1070
	21.12	6040	12	0	0.00	14.17	21.42	0	0	0	0	20.82	6080	12	990	1060
	22.03	5880	12	0	0.00	14.19	22.33	0	0	0	0	21.73	5920	12	990	1060

Lambda corrections look good to me, barring a bit of extra fuel when it comes on boost. The peak MAF reading is down 10g/s from the last time I logged so I did wonder if that was out, but that would show up in either or both of the lambda sensor readings and lambda corrections. As I said I've changed the fuel filter and FPR, only things left would be the injectors and the pump I guess?
 
Last edited:

8bit

Active Member
Feb 11, 2010
3,401
3
Aberdeen
Ok so that's the correct calculation then, (IPW x RPM) / 1200 = Injector Duty Cycle? That's the same right across the rev range?

I see your point about how a tired pump would also show up in the lambda corrections so I guess that rules that out. So am I right in saying it just looks like the map is expecting almost as much as the injectors, pump and FPR are capable of providing?

I did ask Revo if the map (stage 1 linear) was able to support bigger injectors but they said no - they also reckoned the IDCs for that map should be somewhere nearer 85% on stock hardware and suggested there could be something wrong with my fuelling system.

So I guess my options are either replace the pump for a stronger one and fit a 4-bar FPR, or just notch the boost back a notch or two with the SPS switch until the IDCs are back within sensible limits?
 

ibizacupra

Jack-RIP my little Friend
Jul 25, 2001
31,333
19
glos.uk
your airflow is low for the injectorsd being max'd.... 280-285bhp worth of airflow is where I see them go >100% IDC usually

~224g/s approximation, yours 207g/s max?, 10% down ish?
 

ibizacupra

Jack-RIP my little Friend
Jul 25, 2001
31,333
19
glos.uk
you could lob larger injectors in, or 4bar it to drop IDC... and lemmiwinks/unisettings 15% primary fuel back out as crude scaler.

that will adjust the whole scales on revo/any code

does'nt explain why, but is a diy fix/band_aid for you
 

8bit

Active Member
Feb 11, 2010
3,401
3
Aberdeen
your airflow is low for the injectorsd being max'd.... 280-285bhp worth of airflow is where I see them go >100% IDC usually

~224g/s approximation, yours 207g/s max?, 10% down ish?

The car dyno'd at 286.6bhp last time. I agree the airflow looks a little low, I'm running the timing setting on the SPS at 4 though, and I've seen higher airflow in the past. Last lot of logs showed peak airflow at 217g/s. Could be cos I've run three blocks at once it's missed some higher airflow figures at the top end maybe?

Looking at my lambdas too, air/fuel seems to go down as far as 11.7:1, isn't that quite rich, even for Revo? Maybe the dealer set it up to run a bit richer than it needs to be?
 

ibizacupra

Jack-RIP my little Friend
Jul 25, 2001
31,333
19
glos.uk
fueling is'nt adjustable in revo on 1.8t
timing and boost only

if 286bhp was matching the 217g/s then you have your answer re IDC's


Now the question you have to ask yourself is, IF the IDC is max'd and the 920'c egt threshold for protection kicks in, where does the extra fuel dump fuel come from? max'd injectors..
 
Last edited:
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8bit

Active Member
Feb 11, 2010
3,401
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Aberdeen
I know I can't adjust fuel level with the SPS but I wondered if the dealer maybe had a little leeway on that - guess not.

So the answer being that the map is just asking for all that the fuelling system can give, is that right? If so then I either need to increase pressure/flow, or reduce boost in SPS to leave some headroom in the IDCs?
 

ibizacupra

Jack-RIP my little Friend
Jul 25, 2001
31,333
19
glos.uk
So the answer being that the map is just asking for all that the fuelling system can give, is that right? If so then I either need to increase pressure/flow, or reduce boost in SPS to leave some headroom in the IDCs?

dealer cant change anything more than you can via SPS..

more pressure less IDC's and correct via adj fuel trims in lemmi/uni like I said earlier
 

ibizacupra

Jack-RIP my little Friend
Jul 25, 2001
31,333
19
glos.uk
Fresh LCR one is adequate.
unless you have checked fuel pressure for holding 3bar +boost how/WHY are you thinking about replacing it?

The 001 trims are'nt suggesting pressure drop off as said...

Measure it to confirm is my advise.
 

8bit

Active Member
Feb 11, 2010
3,401
3
Aberdeen
Fresh LCR one is adequate.
unless you have checked fuel pressure for holding 3bar +boost how/WHY are you thinking about replacing it?

The 001 trims are'nt suggesting pressure drop off as said...

Measure it to confirm is my advise.

Cos someone posted at the top of page 2 and suggested that running a 4-bar FPR may kill the stock pump. You said yourself it would be a temporary measure, so I figured you meant not running a 4bar FPR long-term on the standard pump. I know of one guy with an AMK engine car locally that killed his stock pump running a 4bar FPR too, but then I know of others who've been running fine like that for a while.

I priced up a new Pierburg pump for an LCR for £210 from Eurocarparts, for that sort of money I figured I may be as well fitting something uprated.

In any case, I think I'm going to try turning the boost down a notch and logging again. I also get a slight flutter when hitting full boost on WOT in taller gears so reckon I need to pull it back for that reason. If that brings IDCs down far enough then I'll just leave it like that.
 
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